Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

I was radicalised on MN, you’re right to be worried

@HermioneWeasley

I was radicalised on MN, you’re right to be worried

Me too! And I told Helen, Mimmybirthingparent, that one of her twitter outbursts sent me to FWR a few years ago! Blocked I was

CuriousaboutSamphire She sent you here? Bloody hell, that was a screw up.

But if they're transgender female, then they're not male anymore...so your title isnt accurate and is actually quite offensive. Are you implying that transgender women are male?

Also, what how it it any different to being locked up with a homosexual cis-gender female, who has also been convicted of a sex crime? (And dont try telling me that cis-gender women cant commit sexual assault)

@PotholeParadies

CuriousaboutSamphire She sent you here? Bloody hell, that was a screw up.

Yep! I think I'd been here before, but got chased off because I didn't agree with someone. Then, in my one and only attempt at Twitter (I lasted about 3 months) I found Helen, I think I had emailed her, if it was her that collected support under the guise of something that turned out to be something else. Anyway, I realised she was Mummybirthingparent and was perusing her Twitter when it dawned on me; I wholly agreed with the MN post she was slating.

That was the beginning of my reframing TWAW etc. And here I am!

All that I have posted on the subject since has been as a direct result of her tweet

I vaguely remember there was another previously 'Be nice' poster who came back with me, but we have both name changed since then!

BalancedIndividual When does someone stop being male and become female?

@BalancedIndividual

But if they're transgender female, then they're not male anymore...so your title isnt accurate and is actually quite offensive. Are you implying that transgender women are male?

Also, what how it it any different to being locked up with a homosexual cis-gender female, who has also been convicted of a sex crime? (And dont try telling me that cis-gender women cant commit sexual assault)

OK! First terminology.

What do you describe as a transgender woman? How can we know if we agree with you of you use terminoloigy that can be easily misinterpreted?

And we don't use cis here, it is a abnned word. But don't worry, unilke others we don't report posters for using it, the firts few times.

And if you don't know the difference between sexual assault and rape then we need a longer discusssion!

Please do elucidate. It would be nice to have a conversation without misunderstandings!

Are you implying that transgender women are male?

I don't think she's "implying" anything. Do you know what "male" means? It's a biological sex class.

@PotholeParadies

BalancedIndividual When does someone stop being male and become female?

Ill admit thats a difficult question...but I guess you'd have to look a physical attributes, hormone levels, lifestyle choices, clothing, physcological state, etc...

I dont think it boils down to just 1 thing exactly.

And what is that?

What clothing changes a biological male into a female?

@CuriousaboutSamphire is it really banned? I didnt know. Im curious why it was banned?

But if they're transgender female, then they're not male anymore...so your title isnt accurate and is actually quite offensive. Are you implying that transgender women are male?

Transgender women are male, otherwise they wouldn't be 'transgender women' they would be 'women'. When you transition, you don't actually change sex, sorry to break it to you!

Secondly, what I find 'offensive' is someone raping a woman with their penis and then being locked up with women. Do you have any thoughts for the women in this scenario or are you only concerned with what is offensive for males?

[quote BalancedIndividual]@CuriousaboutSamphire is it really banned? I didnt know. Im curious why it was banned?[/quote]
Actually you are lucky. It's one of those words that only gets picked up in FWR. This is AIBU, you'll get away with it!

And it was banned for the same reason many other terms have been on FWR. The cohort of people it is used to describe object to it!

Or having a penis & XY chromosomes?

Or frilly dresses, lipstick & long hair?

Because most women don't identify that way, and it's considered goady to label women with a term they don't agree with. It's inflammatory and not generally conducive to civil discussion and hence usually goes against MN TG.

But it's odd that you only engaged with that!

Secondly, what I find 'offensive' is someone raping a woman with their penis and then being locked up with women. Do you have any thoughts for the women in this scenario or are you only concerned with what is offensive for males?

Good question, interesting priorities.

Ill admit thats a difficult question...but I guess you'd have to look a physical attributes, hormone levels, lifestyle choices, clothing, physcological state, etc...

Well, first we are talking about legislation and women's rights, so woolly statements about 'I guess you'd have to look at....' aren't going to cut the mustard I'm afraid.

Secondly, what exactly about 'clothing, lifestyle choices and psychological state' makes someone male or female?

I mean this is surely just common sense, but the fact that women are having to argue for their single sex spaces is astonishing.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

But it's odd that you only engaged with that!

No, I do get the points you are saying.

I guess i dont think that there is a straight forward /concise definition of when someone has transitioned from one gender to another.

Regarding the difference, yes there is a difference between rape and sexual assault. But some sexual assaults by penetration are equally bad or can be worse.

And I do understand what a lot of people are saying, that individuals who are males should not be in womens prisons. I completely agree. But if someone has successfully transitioned and is living as a woman, then should they not be treated as such? (Is my point).

@BalancedIndividual

But if they're transgender female, then they're not male anymore...so your title isnt accurate and is actually quite offensive. Are you implying that transgender women are male?

Also, what how it it any different to being locked up with a homosexual cis-gender female, who has also been convicted of a sex crime? (And dont try telling me that cis-gender women cant commit sexual assault)

This is quite frankly one of the most ridiculous things I have read. Of course transwomen are male. You cannot change your sex from the one you were born into. You can be whatever gender you wish, but your sex will always remain the same.

I completely agree. But if someone has successfully transitioned and is living as a woman, then should they not be treated as such? (Is my point)

How do you live as a woman though? What would that constitute.

@BarbaraofKent

Ill admit thats a difficult question...but I guess you'd have to look a physical attributes, hormone levels, lifestyle choices, clothing, physcological state, etc...

Well, first we are talking about legislation and women's rights, so woolly statements about 'I guess you'd have to look at....' aren't going to cut the mustard I'm afraid.

Secondly, what exactly about 'clothing, lifestyle choices and psychological state' makes someone male or female?

You're right..but the truth is im not qualified to answer that.

That would ultimately be up to the relevant medical professionals on an individual basis.

I think I put myself in the firing line in this thread....I think I need to retreat.....

Sorry, I am going to try and respond to each point, it can seem a bit OTT, but it does help to understand what someone is really saying

I guess i dont think that there is a straight forward /concise definition of when someone has transitioned from one gender to another You say gender. Not sex. Do you think there is a dofference between the 2 terms?

Regarding the difference, yes there is a difference between rape and sexual assault. But some sexual assaults by penetration are equally bad or can be worse. OK! But as the vast majority of all violent crimes are committed by men and the vast majority of women in prison are there for crimes like shop lifting, non payment of council tax etc, your point does seem to be an odd distraction.

And I do understand what a lot of people are saying, that individuals who are males should not be in womens prisons. I completely agree. Good. That is only sane and sensible

But if someone has successfully transitioned and is living as a woman, then should they not be treated as such? (Is my point). Whichleads us back to how do humans change sex? You said it depends on feelings, clothing and hormones. But does that changes the physical make up of a body? How does any of that change the sex of a person?