Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists

[FindTheTruth]

Am I being unreasonable to think that Women shouldn’t have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

Some posts in this thread:
Page7 @teawamutu**
Women have to go to court to beg not to be locked up with intact male rapists.



I mean. What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck?
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Page 8 @ArabellaScott**

Locking women in a place they cannot escape from with intact male rapists.

It's like the worst dystopian fiction you've ever read.

And the UK govt okayed it.
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Page 11 @KeepPrisonsSingleSex**
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your support and interest for this very important case.
Live tweeted from court today and will attend remotely and live tweet again tomorrow.

The points that I took away from today's proceedings are as follows:



1. The 'old' policy on allocation of transgender prisoners (pre Karen White) allowed a degree of discretion re allocation of trans prisoners, including those with a GRC. The new & current one (at least in respect of TW with GRC) does not. (My take is that this now puts women at increased risk, whereas the revised policy should have protected women.)



1. Secretary of State for Justice when formulating the new policy post-Karen White stated that the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act do not apply to prisons. (My take is that if women's prisons are not a definitive example of a single-sex space, then what is?)



1. Before the new policy rolled out there was a 'consultation' with stakeholders including Fair Play and the Centre for Crime and Justice Studied. But evidence presented in court shows Minister had already agreed the new policy predicated on the opinion that single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Therefore this was not in fact a consultation, and none took place. The interests of women in prison were not represented. The evidence presented at that time by FPFW & CCJS was not considered: the decision had been made.



1. I am concerned that in November 2020, Lucy Frazer (Minister for Prisons) re-affirmed the correctness of the policy on allocation of transgender prisoners. This supports the previous Ministerial view that EA single-sex exceptions do not apply to prisons. Yet in September 2020 Liz Truss gave clear statement affirming government commitment to single-sex spaces. Does this commitment extend to prisons or not? This is an important question that government needs to answer.

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Page 11 @ChazsBrilliantAttitude**
I was thinking of a prisons’ version of the Staniland question



“If John Warboys obtained a GRC should they be moved to a woman’s prison?”
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AIBU?
So ….are we hateful bigots on the women’s rights board for thinking Women shouldn’t be locked up with intact male rapists?

I cannot believe we have to rely on these judicial reviews and court cases to highlight the issues around the conflicts in safeguarding women and children. Be here we have it.

YADNBU.

To have the MoJ come out and state that women in any prison estate fall outside the EA exemption is absurd.

And we already know that males retain their biological advantage in any case if they have surgery to remove their penis, so either way it is never ok to put someone with that advantage in with a female.

Wander - good idea letting MPs know the results. It should be obvious but we are where we are

Total disregaurd for womens safety as usual.

Some however are on camera saying they are fully behind a rapist choosing their prison.

Women who do crimes on the lighter end are more often punished with prison than men who generally have to do quite a lot of crime to get prison. Transwomen, according to what we see in the local pre reports are actually given lighter community sentences because of their trans status. So those in prison are likely to be more dangerous and a special risk to females. Given that policy also has been in place for years to try to keep women out of the prison system, the 500 new places seems strange way to go about it. Prisons are dangerous for everyone because of the men in them, but to increase the trauma for women is unacceptable and I really hope this case will show up the complete capture of our institutions..

A particular mp that is...

I didn't see the deleted post but I'm taking a guess here that it said something along the lines of women deserving to get raped if they go to prison. Or something like that. Should have let the post stand, so we can all see the thinking behind some of these people.

Live tweets on the judicial review from 10am, with any luck

twitter.com/NoXYinXXprisons/status/1367045033317253121

According to an article in the Guardian this weekend, 64% of women in prison are there for either shoplifting or non-payment of TV Licences.

The female prison population isn’t mostly violent criminals, it’s women from poverty committing petty, nonviolent crime.

(Not that violent women deserve to be housed with males! I only wanted to point out the crimes women are imprisoned for are very different from those of men)

Lisa Nandy's fully behind male rapists getting the choice of a women's prison, for one.

My friend works as a psychologist. She has never ever discussed an individual, she did however work in Holloway many years ago when we were both establishing our careers. She said the vast majority of women prisoners should not be in prison and most of their crimes fell in to two camps many were linked to poverty or having been abused and really they needed mental health care.

Every time I think this cant get worse, it does. Women being housed with rapists as part of their prison sentence, and rapists being given access to incarcerated women, as part of theirs.

The automatic sacrifice of women, in favour of men, is mind blowing.

And it's been going on for years. Here is an extract from a gender identity expert, consciously, and quite openly, using women for the benefit of a male born killer and sex offender.

Dr Barrett stated in his second report:

"I would say that I suspect that caution will probably lead to her being placed on a segregation unit in the first instance and that in no very great time (perhaps a couple of months) it will become clear that she is so widely accepted as female in that unit that location in the mainprisonwill follow. I think that such acceptance will pretty generally apply in the mainprison,also, although there will probably always be a small number ofprisonerswho will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world."

He seems to be saying that the specific women who don't want to be locked up with a violent male, are to be used as a good test of how far people will comply in real life.

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/2220.html

This is the massive crater at the end of the slippery slope of #BeKind #nodebate.

the sort of women who enjoy conflict

The sort of women who will not shut up, he means.

It's a terrible way to disregard women's rights to safety from active penis.

Just because they've committed a crime (allegedly) that has resulted in them being locked up in prison (and remember mistakes are made too!) does NOT mean they lose all rights to bodily autonomy. It does NOT mean that they "deserve" to be raped, because they already "done wrong".

But it's all part and parcel of showing women just how unimportant they truly are - along with the vanishingly low rates of conviction of rapists in general - in comparison with the wants of men.

YANBU but the truth is that the risk of rape has been accepted as a normal in the male prison estate for years. I'm sure many in the establishment see the spreading of the risk to the female estate as a natural progression.

I wonder if the MoJ have any evidence that these transgender people are at any more danger in a male prison than any other vulnerable male group?

Everyone makes the automatic assumption that TW are immediately in danger in male spaces (I did for a while) but where is the evidence??

Most males are at risk of violence in a male prison - there are many (younger men, gay men, learning/social difficulties etc) that arguably at greater risk - should they all be housed in with the women as well?

There is currently a TW (one of three extremely violent male transgender criminals) in an Irish women’s jail, convicted of a violent attack on a man that resulted in a fractured skull and several days in intensive care for the male victim. This person received a 2 yr sentence, 1 yr of which is suspended because the judge:

accepted that she will “have difficulty serving time in prison”

I imagine many people find serving time in prison difficult. This person attacked and nearly killed a MAN - they can clearly stand up for themselves and display extreme violence when riled. What possible argument is there that it will be ok to house this person with vulnerable women?

Ireland have self id. This person will have filled in an online form to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate. In this country (as well as Ireland) that gives a person automatic entry to the female estate (I’m only walking about TW, I think it was deemed not safe for TM to go into the male estate .

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/woman-jailed-for-assaulting-a-family-friend-who-was-trying-to-break-up-a-fight-1.4498193%3fmode=amp

I once had a discussion with someone [American]* who claimed that it was perfectly ok for Karen White to be in the female estate as women rape too. It was being used as a gotcha to show how horribly transphobic I was being.

*Legal differences with regards to rape.

@AfternoonToffee

I once had a discussion with someone [American]* who claimed that it was perfectly ok for Karen White to be in the female estate as women rape too. It was being used as a gotcha to show how horribly transphobic I was being.

*Legal differences with regards to rape.

It's a bizarre argument. women are raped because of their biology, this is about sex based rights. Even with legal differences - in the UK rape is with a penis, so 100% a male crime.

The argument is as stupid as saying 'women kill too', when hearing that two women a week are killed by a current or former partner in England and Wales alone

Add to the non-violent nature of most of the crimes that women are jailed for the type of background most of them have.

65% of them have head injuries - probably caused by beaten beaten by a man, because that is the usual cause of women's head injuries
www.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/06/nearly-65-of-prisoners-at-womens-jail-show-signs-of-brain-injury

Huge rates of addiction and adverse childhood events - because those are linked.

Poor education outcomes - because that is linked.

These women are amongst our MOST vulnerable. And so we put them in a cell with a convicted sex offender? And tell them they are a bigot if they complain?

Fucking hell.

Gilead had nothing on this.

yup vivarium. Abuse of girls and women is a well known pathway to prison. i.e. without the abuse in the first place a big chunk of the 3000 female prisoners would not be in prison at all.

For men too. There's a whole scoring system you can use for children to flag those at high risk of adverse outcomes (criminality, substance abuse etc) and abuse in childhood is a big indicator. The difference I guess is that abused girls often move on from home into abusive relationships so get hit with a double whammy.

good point Porcupine. So feasibly possible to stop the pathway to prison if only there was a will and the money to do it.

Live Tweets from day 2 in Court
LJH - Lord Justice Holroyde
KM - Claimants barrister - Karon Monaghan QC
Swift - Mr Justice Swift.