Pushy men who won't take "no" for an answer.

[LemonMeringueThreePointOneFour]

Inspired by another thread, but not a TAAT.

I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to get out of this, but I think it's to know whether IABU to still feel quite rankled about these experiences, all of which happened some time ago.

I'd also like to know whether this sort of thing is as common as it seems and whether (as I suspect is the case) I need to work on my boundaries.

1. Had been seeing someone for a while, purposefully not invited him to mine. He took it upon himself to travel to my local area at around 11pm, knowing I would feel obliged to invite him back. I made him sleep in the spare room, but he got into my bed the following morning.

2. Man was in my flat, quite early on (maybe third date). Went to bathroom and unexpectedly reappeared almost naked. Took me a lot of effort to get him to leave, and then he complained that he'd missed the last tube and had to get the night bus.

3. Man put a lot of pressure on me not to leave his house to go home. I then said I'd sleep in spare room, he wouldn't let me.

4. Man in my living room, having a bit of a snog. Asked to go to my bedroom. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

5. Having a meal with someone (first meeting, but not a date). He asked to come to my flat. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

These are all different men, and there are other experiences too. Am I just unlucky, am I a poor judge of character, or are all men like this?

A lot of men are like this

You'll inevitably have at least one person rock up soon to remind you that "not all men are like this" and to tell you that's its poor decision making/choosing on your part but YANBU. There are far too many men who think that access to A automatically entitles them to also access B and that if they play on your sense of kindness then they'll get both a metaphorical and literally foot in the door.

I bet every single one of the men you've described thinks of himself as a "nice guy".

I hear ya, OP. And how shirty they get when you won't "give in."
I'm not dating men anymore. They are obsessed with their dicks and where they can stick them. And yes, I know NAMALT, but enough of them are to have put me off them as a species!

I think you've been unlucky but no way would I take any of that crap. Get a personal alarm . Threaten to activate it. They're deafening (Amazon £6.99). Or, have 999 set up as speed dial & threaten to ring it. Once you lay out the consequences , it tends to clear their mind in my experience. Otherwise they think they can wear you down - or worse. I'd also have a think about the personality traits they have in common, so you can recognise the red flags ahead of time in future. If someone pesters for sex you very firmly say that you won't be forced into amything & I'm going home. And mean it & do it. Don't explain or they will try to negotiate or wear you down..

You need to work on your boundaries. There are people like this in families, in work relationships, in romantic relationships, in friendships.

They ask you for something, and you say no. They ask you again, and you tell them that you've said no, and if they ask you any more, you will absent yourself/demand that they leave. They ask again, you leave/tell them to leave. They don't leave your house, you pick up the phone and tell them you're dialling 999.

When the man 'wouldn't let you' leave his house, and 'wouldn't let you' sleep in his spare room, how did he stop you?

I'm not dating again yet.. but in my head I can't control how they behave but if someone repeatedly asked to go to my bedroom then they'd me asked to leave. If someone doesn't hear me, then they don't think much of what I'm saying. So they'd be a no from me.

And if I didn't invite someone then they'd be looking for an Airbnb. How presumptuous

It's not you OP. I once was chatting to a guy on an app. He was from my local area but when we were speaking he was staying at his parents about 200miles away for a bit. By chance, around the same time I went to visit my own dad who happened to live just a few miles from this guys parents.

I had met this bloke once before, halfway between us. We decided to meet again, but I invited him to my dad's house as a) I don't know the area at all and b) I don't drive and public transport was fiddly and intermittent.

It was clear when he arrived he thought I'd invited him over for sex and was most put out when I made it clear I would not be shagging him in my teen sisters bed!

The worst part of this story is that every single male friend I mentioned this to blamed ME for sending out 'the signal'. Fuck that. I did no such thing. I clearly said, we can watch a movie and order pizza at my dads if you like. I'm still annoyed that his assumption was somehow my fault.

Agreed. Definitely not limited to romantic relationships.
A lot of very dangerous people begin with an immediate testing of your boundaries.

I've met a lot of women who don't think they're going to take no for an answer, too. They, male or female, try to bat away your every polite reason. I've learnt that if they don't accept 'No' or 'Sorry, no' the first time, after that the good old Mumsnet 'That doesn't work for me' repeated as many times as necessary does the trick. Even if I feel a bit silly saying the same thing over and over.

But, just to take one example from your point 1: You say 'knowing I would feel obliged to invite him back.' But you were under no obligation to invite him back. You chose to, believing that you might feel bad if you didn't. If you see that you have free choice and your decisions are your own and no one else's (unless they are physically threatening you), you might find it easier to refuse when you want to.

Someone asking the same thing over and over is very annoying but doesn't actually cause you harm. You can either let him drone on, ask him to go away, or ask him why he is keeping on asking when you've already answered. Did he not understand? Did he think you were lying? Is he trying to pressure you into doing something you don't want to? (In which case, door is there -->)

@Eckhart

You need to work on your boundaries. There are people like this in families, in work relationships, in romantic relationships, in friendships.

They ask you for something, and you say no. They ask you again, and you tell them that you've said no, and if they ask you any more, you will absent yourself/demand that they leave. They ask again, you leave/tell them to leave. They don't leave your house, you pick up the phone and tell them you're dialling 999.

When the man 'wouldn't let you' leave his house, and 'wouldn't let you' sleep in his spare room, how did he stop you?

I think in most of the examples I was very clear in saying no.

Re. the man who wouldn't let me leave his house - I can't remember exactly as this was over a decade ago, but he was very controlling and it was something about his manner (he didn't physically stop me). It still unnerves me how he was able to control me (to some extent - I only dated him for a couple of months) when I am generally quite good at standing up for myself.

We had a horrendous trip abroad together when he dictated just about everything about what we did and when we did it. I never want to experience that feeling of lack of agency again; it was quite horrendous.

It's probably a bit of both OP so I've not voted.

There are a lot of pushy men who think that the tiniest hint of flirting means they are entitled to sex otherwise they'll die from having blue balls and be the ultimate victim.

But I also think people can end up falling into a type when dating, which might explain why some women find that they repeatedly end up romantically involved with men who push boundaries or are useless manchildren.

But, just to take one example from your point 1: You say 'knowing I would feel obliged to invite him back.' But you were under no obligation to invite him back. You chose to, believing that you might feel bad if you didn't. If you see that you have free choice and your decisions are your own and no one else's (unless they are physically threatening you), you might find it easier to refuse when you want to.

This guy was very manipulative, but I know I let him get away with all sorts of things I shouldn't have. (Not sure if that's victim-blaming myself!) Of course the following morning he didn't have to be in the office until late.

Someone asking the same thing over and over is very annoying but doesn't actually cause you harm.

Not in itself, no, but I felt threatened and unsafe.

Hmm. Well, there are people who are like this, but you do seem to have got yourself in a lot of situations where you were somewhere, or they were at your place, and you ended up feeling pressured.

It's not the case that all women, or maybe even most (it's hard to say), find themselves in such situations quite so regularly. So maybe there are things you could do to avoid these situations which would certainly be nicer from your perspective. There is probably not much you can do to stop weirdos and jerks from being weirdos and jerks, so avoiding them is really your best option.

I suppose based on my own experience and observations of people I know I have two thoughts. One is that if you are dating guys you don't know well, especially OLD, I would simply avoid asking them to yours, or going to theirs, unless you are getting to the point of getting serious about the relationship. That's not always convenient but it takes a lot of those scenarios off the table and also is probably safer all round.

The other is that some social/dating circles take sex to be an early and usually inevitable part of dating. The expectation is that people you meet online will be having sex if you have a second or certainly third date, and maybe on the first if it goes well. When people have that kind of expectation around dating interactions, it affects how they behave - they kind of assume that everyone knows that you are heading towards a sexual encounter - that is what they think dating is for.

There are other social circles where that is not the expectation (though many of these people don't do OLD much or at all.) They tend not to assume that dating will lead to sex soon, or maybe at all, and think in terms of months, or until the relationship becomes fairly serious, and some kind of decision is made to brig sex into the picture. While you will still get people who are exploitative or assaulters, you won't get the same assumption across the board that sex is on the table by date three.

People seem to move within one or the other of these circles in terms of dating, and TBH I am not sure how they differentiate in a lot of cases - maybe age or how they meet up, or something else. People I know seem to belong to one or the other and that reflects their values in some way. But maybe if you don't want an assumption that casual sex is going to be part of the dating scene most of the time you could try and find a dating scene where it isn't?

I never brought any man back to my house when I was younger unless I was sure I was going to have sex with them. (Not that I'm saying it should be everyone's rule).

There was one time I was put in a really awkward position with a friend at her house where she brought someone back and the guy I'd kissed but wanted nothing further to do with when I'd sobered up also came back, and ended up pawing me all night though nothing actually happened thank goodness. I never wanted to be in that position again though after that.

There are far too many men who think that access to A automatically entitles them to also access B...

So true. You wouldn't go round to someone's house for a cup of tea and start demanding that they provide a four-course meal with wine, would you?!

I used to have this a lot - let’s be clear I’m not victim blaming but I certainly attracted these sort of men and clearly didn’t spot the warning signs, nor handle them how I would today.
What changed? Boundaries, knowing my own self worth, realising this is not acceptable behaviour and not being scared to speak up and say so!

I do think that many men are like that. I've had similar experiences too and think it's because a lot men are brought up to believe that women are just playing hard to get. They think that if they ask enough times then we'll give in because "we want it really". When I was younger I would sometimes give in to the pressure, but now I'm older (albeit married) I don't think I would and I'd find it very off putting.

Hmm. Well, there are people who are like this, but you do seem to have got yourself in a lot of situations where you were somewhere, or they were at your place, and you ended up feeling pressured.

Not disagreeing with that observation, but should probably clarify that these situations have happened over a span of about 15 years.

The worst thing, I'm ashamed to admit, is that I didn't automatically dump each and every one of them at the first sign of pushiness.

1. Had been seeing someone for a while, purposefully not invited him to mine. He took it upon himself to travel to my local area at around 11pm, knowing I would feel obliged to invite him back. I made him sleep in the spare room, but he got into my bed the following morning.

Why did you feel obliged to ask him back to yours? He chose to make the trip, you didn't ask him nor expect him to. You should have felt confident enough not to invite him back, his problem he's travelled to you without an invite, not yours.

2. Man was in my flat, quite early on (maybe third date). Went to bathroom and unexpectedly reappeared almost naked. Took me a lot of effort to get him to leave, and then he complained that he'd missed the last tube and had to get the night bus.

Glad you got rid of him, tough shit he missed the last tube.

3. Man put a lot of pressure on me not to leave his house to go home. I then said I'd sleep in spare room, he wouldn't let me.

That's awful, creepy and rapey. Your solution here was, as others have suggested, you tell him you are going to dial 999.

4. Man in my living room, having a bit of a snog. Asked to go to my bedroom. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times

5. Having a meal with someone (first meeting, but not a date). He asked to come to my flat. I said no. He asked again, about a dozen times.

Your response when they asked a second time, I've already clearly said no, are you unable to understand or accept the word no? If they ask again show them the door or leave the restaurant.

There are a number of men out there who just cannot or will not accept that women are entitled to say no to them, you seem to have met more than your fair share of them.

I think I had this more when I was younger and not very good at making my 'nos' very clear and explicit. No is no, no matter what so they should have backed off anyway but I know that I was overly worried then about offending or coming across as rude so I would make excuses rather than saying just no on its own which would lead to them trying to talk me round. As I got older I became much better at just saying no and leaving or making them leave any situation I wasn't happy with, because I worried less about how they would take it/if they thought I was rude. Before meeting my DP now I went on a date with a guy and left after 30minutes because he said things I didn't like, when I was younger I would have felt the need to stay a lot longer purely so as not to hurt his feelings.

Years ago I went out on a date with the bloke with whom I shared an office. We were near his flat so he offered to call me a taxi (pre-mobile days). While waiting he disappeared, only to reappear in the doorway a short time later, stark naked apart from his socks and he said ta-da! I burst out laughing he was furious, I left and things were a tad frosty in the office which was difficult as our desks faced each other. It seems nothing changes.

Well, of course they're not all like that - but too many of them are. They just can't resist trying their luck, I'm afraid. If they had any idea just how off-putting it is would they still try it on? Probably.

Is pointing out that you have the right to choose who you spend time with and when, even if you have to put up with feeling uncomfortable when you express this choice, victim blaming?

If you feel threatened and unsafe you should say so at once. If his reaction is that he's OK about that, you need to leave, or insist he leaves, and call the police if he attempts to stop that.

Why did you feel obliged to ask him back to yours?

Because I didn't want him to reject me. Stupid, I know.

Glad you got rid of him, tough shit he missed the last tube.

He even had the brass neck to continue to complain about it for the next few months.

Your response when they asked a second time, I've already clearly said no, are you unable to understand or accept the word no? If they ask again show them the door or leave the restaurant.

I was worried he would follow me to my flat which was very close by.