To think personal responsibility no longer exists

[Wondermule]

I know this is going to be a controversial post, so I’ve got my hard hat on 🪖

It has really dawned on me how little personal responsibility people take now. Every other thread seems to be someone posting to offload their problems (financially dependant relationship, COVID worries due to high BMI, hellish mother in law among the most common) yet there is always an excuse about why they can’t the advice given, usually drip feeding something about anxiety or mental health. Please don’t see this as me making light of mental health issues (sufferer here myself), but it doesn’t change the fact only you can make changes to your life.

Also many posts citing ‘lack of support’ - this one inspired by the chocolate button debacle! - a mum feeding her 3 month old chocolate buttons just didn’t have the ‘support’ or ‘education’ to make healthy choices apparently. Never mind the healthy start vouchers for fruit and veg, maternity grant, free weaning courses at children’s centres, all the help available online... it’s all the state’s fault. I feel ‘lack of support’ will be cited until the government send someone to prepare all her meals and police her shopping trolley.

I feel in being too sympathetic, it is just providing excuses for people not to take responsibility for their own choices. Or am I wrong??

@turquoisewaters

Are you familiar with the idea of intersectionality

I have people close to me who have come from very disadvantaged backgrounds and whom I have witnessed making progress in life through relentless tenacity, discipline, resourcefulness and hard work.

If I encountered someone IRL who tried to refer to them as 'privileged', I would let them know in no uncertain terms that such an insult will not be tolerated

Why is privileged an insult?

@AccidentallyOnPurpose because it implies that it is undeserved and that the holder of said privilege cannot understand what it is like not to have that privilege. Which is not true for many.

”Why is privileged an insult?“

It depends on the context in which it is written. But I feel that more frequently it is being used to undermine or belittle the achievements of others. It seems to be a way of insulting people with very little comeback.

Because of this it can be used to shut down discussions, for example implying that because of the perceived “privilege” people cannot possibly understand the point of view of others, or empathise with them.

In my opinion instead of helping with social cohesion it does the opposite.

@turquoisewaters

Are you familiar with the idea of intersectionality

I have people close to me who have come from very disadvantaged backgrounds and whom I have witnessed making progress in life through relentless tenacity, discipline, resourcefulness and hard work.

If I encountered someone IRL who tried to refer to them as 'privileged', I would let them know in no uncertain terms that such an insult will not be tolerated

... literally not what I asked but okay

“Privileged” isn’t an insult. It’s a statement of fact. Some simply have more money than others.

Some wealthy individuals get very defensive when their wealth is pointed out. And I think part of this may be due to guilt... they KNOW it’s unfair that they have so much whilst many struggle.

I think many justify excessive wealth by saying “I’ve worked hard”. But if covid has taught us anything it’s that lots of people who work hard and do socially useful jobs struggle financially.

So maybe many are starting to question this idea of financial privilege as being “deserved” or “hard earned” and to instead see it as the result of a deeply unequal society.

And it’s important to discuss inequality because your views are ultimately going to be shaped by the life you have led and how much privilege you have.

@Someonetookmyname

“Privileged” isn’t an insult. It’s a statement of fact. Some simply have more money than others.

Some wealthy individuals get very defensive when their wealth is pointed out. And I think part of this may be due to guilt... they KNOW it’s unfair that they have so much whilst many struggle.

I think many justify excessive wealth by saying “I’ve worked hard”. But if covid has taught us anything it’s that lots of people who work hard and do socially useful jobs struggle financially.

So maybe many are starting to question this idea of financial privilege as being “deserved” or “hard earned” and to instead see it as the result of a deeply unequal society.

And it’s important to discuss inequality because your views are ultimately going to be shaped by the life you have led and how much privilege you have.

Er, hold on a moment because that is very unfair on many people.

It isn’t a ‘statement of fact’ because what one person considers wealthy, another doesn’t. It’s subjective. Hospital cleaners are ‘privileged’ compared to a person in a slum in Brazil. Then goes the race to the bottom which helps nobody.

Who goes around asking people about their wealth? Who are you referring to? If it’s the Royal Family or Jeff Bezos then fair enough. But somebody who has studied hard at school, put in the effort and got a job paying 60k? What would you say about them?

Yes society is unequal. How would you propose to equalise it in a way that incentivises people to work hard and take on stressful and necessary jobs such as doctors, nurses and engineers?

@Someonetookmyname

“Privileged” isn’t an insult. It’s a statement of fact. Some simply have more money than others.

Some wealthy individuals get very defensive when their wealth is pointed out. And I think part of this may be due to guilt... they KNOW it’s unfair that they have so much whilst many struggle.

I think many justify excessive wealth by saying “I’ve worked hard”. But if covid has taught us anything it’s that lots of people who work hard and do socially useful jobs struggle financially.

So maybe many are starting to question this idea of financial privilege as being “deserved” or “hard earned” and to instead see it as the result of a deeply unequal society.

And it’s important to discuss inequality because your views are ultimately going to be shaped by the life you have led and how much privilege you have.

When large swathes of society are deemed 'privileged' then the word loses its meaning. Lots of people from ordinary working class families, children of poor immigrants, etc becoming decent earners through hard work. Common denominator is good families with parents instilling the value of hard work. These people are then demonised by others because they are 'privileged' enough to not have mental health issues/broken families/etc etc. However the latter is a minority. A large majority of people simply haven't been advised properly - go into a career with a decent wage, etc. The onus is on institutions such as schools to provide such support where family fails. Attacking people in the name of privilege solves nothing. It reesults in a race to the bottom where anyone who has all 5 functioning senses is 100% PRIVILEGED as there are people who don't have this.

Also just to note - I'm not saying that extreme inequality isn't a problem. If people cannot afford essentials such as food, housing etc on a minimum wage and there is a lack of stable employment regulation we have a problem.
I'm just pointing out that calling everyone better off than you privileged dissolves the meaning of the word.

I keep seeing people say things like "I feel sorry for people who have genuine mental health issues" but then from the rest of what they say I have no idea if they would actually feel sorry for my genuine mental illness or write me off as a snowflake faker.

But there is a big difference between being nervous about things (I hate public speaking but I can force myself through it) and the actual problems I'm treated for.

@pucelleauxblanchesmains

I keep seeing people say things like "I feel sorry for people who have genuine mental health issues" but then from the rest of what they say I have no idea if they would actually feel sorry for my genuine mental illness or write me off as a snowflake faker.

It's the same as "I'm not racist but.." or the ones that rant about immigrants doing this,that and the other and then adding "I don't mean you of course". Or people on benefits, or single mums, or whatever group they deem "other".

It's a poor attempt at not sounding like a dick, while being a dick.

Yes privilege is subjective - and no I wouldn’t necessarily call someone on 60k privileged. £160k maybe. But it’s clearly a fact that some in society are rich and some are poor. And another way of saying this is that some are privileged - but this obviously depends on context.

I’m not attacking anyone. Calling someone privileged ISN’T insulting. I consider myself privileged to an extent.

But I also accept that my financial privilege is unfair. Because society is deeply unfair in terms of how much certain jobs pay and how easy it is for some to earn money easily, depending on their genes, upbringing, luck, timing etc.

I’m not saying it’s every single privileged persons fault that society is so unequal. Or that every single privileged person should shut themselves out of discussions on wealth because of their privilege.

But I do think in debates on wealth it is only right that the issue of privilege should be acknowledged. In the same way that if you were discussing race, you would acknowledge that a black person may have different opinions on racism than a white person.

And I do think this middle class reasoning of “but I’ve worked hard so I deserve to be rich” needs re-examining. IMO hard work should obviously be incentivised through financial gain. But there should be a limit - how many cars, boats, houses, shoes does someone need to be happy? And ultimately is it right that some in society have excessive wealth (billions) whilst some starve? Especially when the starving person (perhaps a hospital cleaner with credit card debts) may be doing a far more socially useful job than the billionaire (perhaps a hedge fund manager who helped crash the economy).

Ultimately I think the middle class comfortably privileged should change the way they think about wealth from “I deserve this because I’ve worked hard” to “I’m fucking lucky because lots of people work hard, but aren’t as comfortable as me”.

And so when someone calls you privileged, instead of being defensive you should acknowledge your privilege is unfair, and that it probably does impact your view on wealth.

@pucelleauxblanchesmains from what I can see people are pissed at a) people self-diagnosing and using this as an excuse or b) people whose mental health issues leave their colleagues picking up slack, in which case it's a management problem and they're taking it out on the wrong person.

I've read this thread flip flopping my opinion constantly. Many of you are very persuasive writers!

I have resilience, due to the death of my Mum when I was 8, then an alcoholic step mum and finally military training which really taught me self-esteem, self-respect, personal responsibility and acceptance of the fact that often life is shit and unfair.

My DC's school have been doing a lot of work around meta-cognition. The child friendly language is "being the boss of your brain". They've also been doing a lot around resilience and failure. This is good.

I'll be doing what I can to bring my children up with the concepts of resilience and personal responsibility.

@Someonetookmyname

You seem to confuse privilege with output rather than input. Someone can be a Billionnaire, not through their privilege but hard work. Though right place, right place helps. Privilege is not about where you end up but where you started.

Privilege is not just financial either . The more cards you have stacked against you, the less likely you are to win. Not impossible, but the chances decrease massively.

Calling someone privileged ISN’T insulting

If someone is telling you that they consider the word insulting, you should stop saying it

If someone is telling you that they consider the word insulting, you should stop saying it

Possibly the most entitled thing I’ve ever heard.

You are offended by something that isn’t offensive, so people should stop saying it! How about taking some personal responsibility and managing your own feelings, instead of making others tiptoe around you!

Cambridge definition of privilege: “the way in which rich people or people from a high social class have most of the advantages in society”

Nothing insulting in there - just a factual definition. If someone is deemed rich it’s fair to call them privileged. Regardless of their background or how hard they worked to get rich. And it’s unreasonable to get upset by this - it’s just a definition.

Nothing insulting in there - just a factual definition

There are lots of words which have factual definitions and people find them insulting, so they shouldn't be said (I won't quote them here for obvious reasons)

You are offended by something that isn’t offensive

It's not just me - read previous posts. The word has been weaponised by a certain type of rhetoric (I'm enlightening you, in case you hadn't noticed)

@Someonetookmyname

If someone is telling you that they consider the word insulting, you should stop saying it

Possibly the most entitled thing I’ve ever heard.

You are offended by something that isn’t offensive, so people should stop saying it! How about taking some personal responsibility and managing your own feelings, instead of making others tiptoe around you!

Cambridge definition of privilege: “the way in which rich people or people from a high social class have most of the advantages in society”

Nothing insulting in there - just a factual definition. If someone is deemed rich it’s fair to call them privileged. Regardless of their background or how hard they worked to get rich. And it’s unreasonable to get upset by this - it’s just a definition.

Why not just call them rich then?

From what I can see on here (in general) 'privileged' as an insult is quite often used as a counter to 'entitled' as an insult.
They're often thrown about on threads about benefits, or in relation to earning (be that high or low)
I think the actual root of the problem is people measuring success in purely financial terms, and measuring contribution to society in purely financial terms - the amount of tax you pay Vs the amount of tax you use to put it simply, value seems to be given on the basis of the contents of your bank account and how it got there, rather than the bigger picture of that being just one part of a whole person.

Mixed feelings on this. For example over the last 20 odd years i've noticed the rates of obesity and diabetes have increased. The latter, if left unchecked, has the potential to collapse our healthcare system.

Shaming people is pointless and cruel but not tackling this will be disastrous. This is about personal responsibility and only the individual can make changes to their eating/exercise habits.

On the flipside there's so many fast food outlets selling cheap calorific food, alot are open 24hrs. Disordered eating patterns have increased but the help available like CBT is incredibly stretched. Full blown eating disorders and diets aren't compatible - diets will make it worse. Carrying alot of excess weight means exercise is hard work. We are constantly bombarded with airbrushed images of people, reminding us of our physical failures. And if most of your family and friends are overweight then you won't feel the odd man out. In fact, you maybe encouraged to stay overweight to avoid threatening those around you.

It's not just me - read previous posts.

Funnily enough most of them coming from posters that bang on about resilience ,personal responsibility etc.

Why not just call them rich then

Because privileged is sometimes more appropriate.

@turquoisewaters

The word privileged hasn’t been weaponised - that is very dramatic and overly sensitive, and to be honest a bit ridiculous.

It’s funny how some of the women on here are happy to preach about resilience and personal responsibility in the face of other people’s genuine struggles, eg poor mental health, income inequality etc. Often suggesting people with these problems should just work on themselves. But if you dare point out that a wealthy middle class women is privileged, well this is just too much. That word is just too upsetting, and should be removed from the conversation so that the delicate little flowers do not get upset 😢

@Someonetookmyname

Why not just call them rich then

Because privileged is sometimes more appropriate.

@turquoisewaters

The word privileged hasn’t been weaponised - that is very dramatic and overly sensitive, and to be honest a bit ridiculous.

It’s funny how some of the women on here are happy to preach about resilience and personal responsibility in the face of other people’s genuine struggles, eg poor mental health, income inequality etc. Often suggesting people with these problems should just work on themselves. But if you dare point out that a wealthy middle class women is privileged, well this is just too much. That word is just too upsetting, and should be removed from the conversation so that the delicate little flowers do not get upset 😢

Why is it more appropriate, if it means the same thing? You said rich = privileged.

I do think it has been weaponised. It is used to shut down anyone having an opinion whose life is going well in one area or another.