To think personal responsibility no longer exists

[Wondermule]

I know this is going to be a controversial post, so I’ve got my hard hat on 🪖

It has really dawned on me how little personal responsibility people take now. Every other thread seems to be someone posting to offload their problems (financially dependant relationship, COVID worries due to high BMI, hellish mother in law among the most common) yet there is always an excuse about why they can’t the advice given, usually drip feeding something about anxiety or mental health. Please don’t see this as me making light of mental health issues (sufferer here myself), but it doesn’t change the fact only you can make changes to your life.

Also many posts citing ‘lack of support’ - this one inspired by the chocolate button debacle! - a mum feeding her 3 month old chocolate buttons just didn’t have the ‘support’ or ‘education’ to make healthy choices apparently. Never mind the healthy start vouchers for fruit and veg, maternity grant, free weaning courses at children’s centres, all the help available online... it’s all the state’s fault. I feel ‘lack of support’ will be cited until the government send someone to prepare all her meals and police her shopping trolley.

I feel in being too sympathetic, it is just providing excuses for people not to take responsibility for their own choices. Or am I wrong??

I agree OP. And I agree with the 'pendulum has swung too far' from 'everyone should have a stiff upper lip all the time' to 'nothing is ever your fault'. There has to be some reasonable middle ground. I have no issue with people making mistakes, but when they make those same mistakes again and again it is too much. When you look at people who are successful, however you define that, they seem to always be people who took responsibility for their own success and happiness. I am sure we all have examples in our own families and friendship groups of people who can never pick themselves up or sort themselves out because some other person or thing is holding them back.

I actually really admire people who fuck up and own it. Good on them.

(I didn't read the chocolate buttons thread but FFS, there's no excuse for that.)

I think the Duke and Duchess of Sussex epitomise this thread. Everything they do and say screams of entitlement and "poor little us." We all know that Prince Harry's mother died when he was a child and, of course, had every sympathy. However, he is in his mid-thirties and is married, with a child of his own and another on the way. He has also led a life of unimaginable privilege. There are many, many people whose parents have died when they were children, but they try to get on with their lives as best they can and do not use it as an excuse for their own mistakes.

I think that there is a very unfortunate tendency IRL and on this thread to confound 'responsibility' and 'resilience'.

I do agree that a lot of people seem very reluctant to take personal responsibility, and inclined to blame others for everything, though I am not sure that this is worse now than in previous generations. An example which annoyed me is people thinking that Dominic Cummings' breach of lockdown excuses them from following rules themselves. Yes, Cummings is poisonous; yes, this government is pretty rubbish on most things (except surprisingly vaccines); no, I've never voted Tory. But, to use a classic parental expression - if Dominic Cummings jumped off a cliff, would you do so too?! We should be trying to avoid getting and spreading Covid because we don't want to harm ourselves or others, not just because the government told us to! And this is just one example.

However, irresponsible behaviour usually has little to do with resilience. In fact, some of the most irresponsible people are those who think that they're immortal and invincible and won't suffer any major consequences of foolish behaviour (or in many cases don't think at all!). Combine this with selfishness and a lack of concern about how one's own behaviour may affect others, and you get a perfect recipe for irresponsibility.

However, this does not mean that harshness toward people who have mental or physical health difficulties, or just can't cope with certain situations, is good for them or will make them resilient. Often the opposite. Nor is 'resilience' a moral virtue. Nor are most people 'resilient' or 'non-resilient' globally. Most people are resilient about some things and not others (I am very resilient about effort and about waiting for things; I am not resilient about pain.) Nor should resilience be equated with stoicism and the stiff upper lip. Too many people had very stiff upper lips - until their undiagnosed mental health issues caused them to take their own lives.

I agree that it is unfair that the resilient have to prop up the non-resilient; but - as people have said on this thread - life is not fair. The most obvious example that instantly comes to mind is that of healthy people having to care for others with dementia. Which can certainly be very difficult and stressful for the carers; but is hardly the fault of the people with dementia! The same goes for those with mental health difficulties. I realize that in some cases, needing to be propped up is to some extent the result of poor choices (e.g. alcoholism or drug addiction), but I don't think this is true in general.

I think that people's failure to take responsibility for their choices may be more noticeable nowadays because many people are given more choices, at least on the surface. It is a very good thing that nowadays people don't just fall into a narrow slot provided for them: men don't automatically have to become, say, farmers or miners, because that's what everyone does in their community; women don't have to be SAHMs because that's their sex role in life. But the greater choices do perhaps come with more risk of falling through the cracks.

Similarly, it is great that nowadays young people stay in education till 18 and nearly half go to university; but it does mean that some of them need support in doing so. Those people who couldn't cope with challenging exams 40 years ago didn't have to do them. They left school at 16 (a few years earlier it would have been 15) and certainly didn't go to university. It restricted their job opportunities, but there were plenty of jobs that they could do. I think that if we are to expect a large proportion of people to stay in education long-term, we have to accept that this will come with greater need for some form of hand-holding than in the past. Or we can go back to having fewer people in further and higher education (personally I think we should continue with the greater educational provision, but not assume that everyone will be going to college at 18, and provide more opportunities for mature students). But we should not expect both that over 40% of people will go into higher education, and that they will all be just as well prepared and independent as when it was under 10%.

So I entirely agree that people should learn to be responsible and to consider consequences before making decisions. But - as someone with physical health problems and mild disabilities that went undiagnosed for many years and were sometimes treated as laziness- I strongly oppose any attitude that mental health problems can be cured or prevented by harshness and a refusal to 'pander' to the people with such problems.

I think that there is a very unfortunate tendency IRL and on this thread to confound 'responsibility' and 'resilience'

I'm not sure people think they are the same, so much as when the way a society raised children encourages some kind of acceptance of responsibility from a young age, it tends to create adults who are more resilient. Or that children whose experiences as kids encourage reliance are more likely to take responsibility for themselves as adults.

One way we might think about this, actually, is through the prism of habit. For a long time there was a view in child-raising and in education that the formation of children with good habits was designed to give people more freedom of choice as adults. So if you learned to manage your time, speak during a presentation, or control your shyness, it would help you ultimately to be better able to do the things you want to later on.

But in general, the approach to child rearing at the moment, and within education, tends to completely dismiss this idea, or even be unaware of it.

when the way a society raised children encourages some kind of acceptance of responsibility from a young age, it tends to create adults who are more resilient.

I actually do agree with that. I think that it's good for children - within reason - to be given some responsibilities from early on; and that learning a variety of life skills does contribute to resilience. There's a lot in the old Scouting movement that is fairly ridiculous, but 'Be prepared' is not a bad motto.

What I was really objecting to was the idea that lack of resilience is usually caused by irresponsible attitudes, and that people with mental health problems are showing weakness of character, and mainly need a dose of 'tough love' and being forced to stand on their own feet .

What I was really objecting to was the idea that lack of resilience is usually caused by irresponsible attitudes, and that people with mental health problems are showing weakness of character, and mainly need a dose of 'tough love' and being forced to stand on their own feet .

I agree. Resilience and taking responsibility are not the same, although learning to take responsibility can make one more resilient.

I also agree with the PP working in HE re students avoiding the learning of important life skills such as public speaking because of anxiety. What are these people going to do when invited for a job interview?

@Violinist64

I think the Duke and Duchess of Sussex epitomise this thread. Everything they do and say screams of entitlement and "poor little us." We all know that Prince Harry's mother died when he was a child and, of course, had every sympathy. However, he is in his mid-thirties and is married, with a child of his own and another on the way. He has also led a life of unimaginable privilege. There are many, many people whose parents have died when they were children, but they try to get on with their lives as best they can and do not use it as an excuse for their own mistakes.

I don't think they epitomise anything, and their circumstances are extremely particular to the British royal family.

They simply don't want to go on being disgustingly abused in the press and media as happened with the previous generation and want to take some control of public relations, which I think is fair enough.

@Graciebobcat I take it you haven’t read today’s headlines...

I make it my business to ignore the press as much as possible. Can't believe any newspapers still exist tbh.

@Graciebobcat

I make it my business to ignore the press as much as possible. Can't believe any newspapers still exist tbh.

I can tell. I suggest your overcome your scruples and have a quick read.

I desperately want my DD to be more resilient. I am really resilient and quite brave and will try to tackle most things. But she is scared of everything and anxious and easily stressed to the point of tears. I actually now think this is just her and she is different to me as I have tried so hard to help her be more confident and self assured. She is in counselling for example. I do think she will be held back in life potentially but then again, how can she help how she is? I would appreciate advice actually!

Maybe tangentially related to the OP's post.

Can I say I find the overuse of the word 'privileged' irritating?

It ignores and belittles any effort the person in question (or their family) may have made to get to the perceived position they are in and automatically provides carte blanche to dish out unrepentant hostility and criticism

It also always appears to relate to economic or social attributes. It overlooks the fact that someone may have the 'privilege' to be healthy, beautiful, loved, innately intelligent, etc (which a lot of wealthy individuals are not)

@turquoisewaters

Maybe tangentially related to the OP's post.

Can I say I find the overuse of the word 'privileged' irritating?

It ignores and belittles any effort the person in question (or their family) may have made to get to the perceived position they are in and automatically provides carte blanche to dish out unrepentant hostility and criticism

It also always appears to relate to economic or social attributes. It overlooks the fact that someone may have the 'privilege' to be healthy, beautiful, loved, innately intelligent, etc (which a lot of wealthy individuals are not)

Indeed. It’s like saying we all have life privilege because we are not dead.

@SmokedDuck

The anxiety thing really ticks me off. One of my daughters tends to be anxious and it's something I'm trying to help her learn strategies to deal with. I was the same at her age, really scared of social things in particular.

But basically she has learned from the school that she has anxiety, and things this is something that is a disease that will limit her and that she needs to see someone about. The school counsellor gave the whole class a test for anxiety and talked to them about it, IMO medicalising something that is completely normal in teen girls.

Trying to counter that message makes me the bad guy, which I find enraging.

Yes, my eldest has had a stressful couple of years with uni/accommodation problems but can’t accept that it’s normal to be stressed about such things and you need to keep going. Very hard to guide but not support the idea of them having a mental illness.

@Mummadeze I used to be a bit like your daughter (except not to the point of tears). Start with small, achieve and goals. And more importantly examine the thought process behind her anxiety.
I noticed that a lot of ‘brave’ people either a) didn’t really think about the consequences or b) thought what they did was the right choice without overthinking. While I had a million what-ifs and wouldn’t do anything without guaranteed perfection. I was paralysed by indecision.
What I did was tell myself that the outcome didn’t matter - perfection is overrated- felt the fear and did it anyway. Surprisingly the world didn’t end and while I made some mistakes nobody thought less of me for it.
From speaking up in meetings...to moving to a whole new team I knew nothing about...to being put in charge ...incremental steps :)
Another thing if you have low self esteem and no confidence... you are so anxious that you speak up only if you’re 100% sure you’re right. Now I don’t care anymore and speak up anyway - I’m right 80% of the time, so are other people. So this has fuelled more confidence

I think that it's possible for 2 things to be true at once.

Yes some people could do better if they took more responsibility. But equally, there are many people who struggle in life due to circumstances outside their control. These people often suffer judgement by those who don't know or understand their circumstances.

The problem is that it's really hard to distinguish between the two.

I also think that most of those who get to the top are not those who have the hardest kind of ongoing struggles (most bosses haven't had to take lengthy time off as an unpaid carer to a disabled child or had ongoing painful health problems which affect their performance). Therefore workplaces can often be fairly unsupportive places. It has got better, but there is still a long way to go.

@turquoisewaters

*Maybe tangentially related to the OP's post.

Can I say I find the overuse of the word 'privileged' irritating?

It ignores and belittles any effort the person in question (or their family) may have made to get to the perceived position they are in and automatically provides carte blanche to dish out unrepentant hostility and criticism*

I completely disagree. I can’t stand this idea that the financially privileged somehow “deserve” to be so because they (or their parents!) have “worked hard”. Cleaners mopping hospital floors at 5am work hard. A single mum looking after 2 kids on her own works hard. Lots of people work hard but have no money.

Financial privilege buys you a longer life expectancy, better health, a better future for your children and a happier life.

With the gap between the rich and poor growing, I think it’s only right that the issue of privilege (yes meaning wealth privilege) is raised increasingly. As someone with relative financial privilege (that I probably don’t deserve) I wouldn’t blame others for criticising my position, or for being hostile. Because it isn’t fair.

I dread to think what will happen in the future if the issue of wealth inequality is allowed to get worse.

Well i think that modern society should be aiming to give us all more leisure time with a better work/ life balance than previous generations given the boom in AI.
I think that the state has to provide better conditions for people to succeed. Take the 1% nurse pay rise.
If nurses are not rewarded adequately then they will seek more lucrative agency work or a different career. If you reward them with a wage that is in line with inflation then there is more incentive for them to commit to their career.
When austerity hit the Tories closed many public services such as libraries ...what were said librarians then supposed to do? The government needs to provide more jobs with reasonable wages to take pressure off the welfare state.
I have worked jobs such as a TA where i was making a loss...no wonder I packed it in.

@turquoisewaters

Maybe tangentially related to the OP's post.

Can I say I find the overuse of the word 'privileged' irritating?

It ignores and belittles any effort the person in question (or their family) may have made to get to the perceived position they are in and automatically provides carte blanche to dish out unrepentant hostility and criticism

It also always appears to relate to economic or social attributes. It overlooks the fact that someone may have the 'privilege' to be healthy, beautiful, loved, innately intelligent, etc (which a lot of wealthy individuals are not)

Great post, completely agree

@turquoisewaters

Maybe tangentially related to the OP's post.

Can I say I find the overuse of the word 'privileged' irritating?

It ignores and belittles any effort the person in question (or their family) may have made to get to the perceived position they are in and automatically provides carte blanche to dish out unrepentant hostility and criticism

It also always appears to relate to economic or social attributes. It overlooks the fact that someone may have the 'privilege' to be healthy, beautiful, loved, innately intelligent, etc (which a lot of wealthy individuals are not)

Are you familiar with the idea of intersectionality?

*I think that it's possible for 2 things to be true at once.

Yes some people could do better if they took more responsibility. But equally, there are many people who struggle in life due to circumstances outside their control. These people often suffer judgement by those who don't know or understand their circumstances.

The problem is that it's really hard to distinguish between the two.

I also think that most of those who get to the top are not those who have the hardest kind of ongoing struggles (most bosses haven't had to take lengthy time off as an unpaid carer to a disabled child or had ongoing painful health problems which affect their performance). Therefore workplaces can often be fairly unsupportive places. It has got better, but there is still a long way to go.*

Great post!

Are you familiar with the idea of intersectionality

I have people close to me who have come from very disadvantaged backgrounds and whom I have witnessed making progress in life through relentless tenacity, discipline, resourcefulness and hard work.

If I encountered someone IRL who tried to refer to them as 'privileged', I would let them know in no uncertain terms that such an insult will not be tolerated

ddl1 is talking a lot of sense.

I think it is self control more than personal responsibility although they're similar. People recognise the actions are negative they want to be personally responsible only everything is instant gratification self control is harder.

ddl1 is talking a lot of sense

Thanks, but actually I was quoting WaltzforDebbie's post there!