To think personal responsibility no longer exists

[Wondermule]

I know this is going to be a controversial post, so I’ve got my hard hat on 🪖

It has really dawned on me how little personal responsibility people take now. Every other thread seems to be someone posting to offload their problems (financially dependant relationship, COVID worries due to high BMI, hellish mother in law among the most common) yet there is always an excuse about why they can’t the advice given, usually drip feeding something about anxiety or mental health. Please don’t see this as me making light of mental health issues (sufferer here myself), but it doesn’t change the fact only you can make changes to your life.

Also many posts citing ‘lack of support’ - this one inspired by the chocolate button debacle! - a mum feeding her 3 month old chocolate buttons just didn’t have the ‘support’ or ‘education’ to make healthy choices apparently. Never mind the healthy start vouchers for fruit and veg, maternity grant, free weaning courses at children’s centres, all the help available online... it’s all the state’s fault. I feel ‘lack of support’ will be cited until the government send someone to prepare all her meals and police her shopping trolley.

I feel in being too sympathetic, it is just providing excuses for people not to take responsibility for their own choices. Or am I wrong??

@blackheartsgirl

'here's a minority of people in the world who do struggle completely with everyday life, who have such bad mental health issues that they just can't cope. They will be in care for the rest of their lives sadly. They'll never leave it. The majority of the rest is just bad bloody parenting'

So my 18 year old daughter was caused by bad parenting then ffs

Seriously. What a joke.

She is now thankfully independent and is now at uni but what a struggle she had. She struggled hugely with anxiety even to the point she never went out and answered her phone only to 3 people. Me, her dad and her stepdad.

She was suicidal, routine driven, wouldnt look people in the eye and couldn't do presentations without a meltdown. But she because her mental health problems are not severe enough to be in care forever then her autism is obviously down to poor parenting. Oh do fuck off.
The adults in her life have worked hard to help her overcome many issues and do you know what her biggest achievement was for her..not a stars she got for her a levels but the fact she ordered a take away for herself for her and a housemate. At the age of 18.

Sounds like your daughter was in the former group rather than the latter. I’ve made it perfectly clear this thread only applies to people who can change their circumstances, your daughter cannot. I think you know this but are twisting words so you can take it personally. I’m glad your daughter is feeling better.

@Someonetookmyname

Has anyone suggested blaming and shaming

Oh come on, it’s all over this thread. Ie your own example of someone complaining about being tired because they cosleep with a toddler.

Ie blaming the mother for her tiredness because she cosleeps - and shaming her for doing it as it’s not the norm.

Whereas presumably a mother who parented in a way you found socially acceptable would probably be sympathised with for saying her toddler made her tired, because toddlers are bloody tiring.

Are the co sleeping police going door to door every night looking for mothers who have children in their bed and then do a tiredness test to publish names of those who test positive? No what actually happens is that co sleeping parents make a choice (which is one I agree to by the way), and some then cannot handle it but carry on doing it, and then tell others how tired they are. Calling out that they made the choice is not making and shaming. They started the conversation and told everyone about the consequences of their actions, why not own these consequences.

Nice wish list. Everyone wants the same, but working out how is the hard part. Not sure anyone would disagree with any of what you wrote. But what does that have to do with personal responsibility

So much in my opinion.

I really believe the lack or personal responsibility stems from a culture where people are made to feel dependent on the state.

If it’s impossible for you to take personal responsibility for the important life decisions, ie where you buy a house (can’t afford one anywhere), what job you do (can only get a crappy zero hours one), eventually you will stop taking personal responsibility for the smaller decisions too

[quote Wondermule]@MistressoftheDarkSide

Fault, blame and shame do not appear to work.

Has anyone suggested blaming and shaming?[/quote]
You were literally laughing earlier, emojis and all at at least 3 groups of people earlier. Interestingly,two of those were about women only.

Baby men, I work full time. So i just sit here and sulk whilst my mam cleans my home and i pop to hers cos she cooks every night. I'm tired! Not my fault I can't get a girlfriend to hang around

@AccidentallyOnPurpose given they were examples of threads on a primarily female website, is that surprising?

Laziness is not something we are easily aware of because it might be too engrained in our lifestyle, but it doesn't take away the fact that compared to any previous generation, we have become much lazier, expecting to take part in fewest demanding tasks whilst maximising the relaxing, pleasurable ones

I don't know where to start with someome who thinks people were morally superior in the past and who thinks corporate appraisals are a Good Thing. May as well try and reason with Catbert.

Ha ha my mother used to say the same as what op said in first post. If still alive she would have been 103 years old.

Exactly @fiveoldteddies 👏

@fiveoldteddies

Ha ha my mother used to say the same as what op said in first post. If still alive she would have been 103 years old.

Really? She would’ve predicted covid??

[quote Wondermule]@AccidentallyOnPurpose given they were examples of threads on a primarily female website, is that surprising?[/quote]
Yes it actually is to me.

Anyways, what happened to abstract discussion though? Today you just seem to laugh at specific posters/circumstances.

No what actually happens is that co sleeping parents make a choice (which is one I agree to by the way), and some then cannot handle it but carry on doing it, and then tell others how tired they are

I’ve both co slept and not no co slept with my toddler. I feel equally as entitled to complain about being tired whether I’ve co slept or not

I don’t agree with you that when I’ve decided to cosleep I suddenly shouldn’t be able to complain about being tired!!! Or that doing so means me not taking personal responsibility for my actions. Every parent can complain about being tired if they want to. Saying mothers can’t complain about tiredness because they cosleep does kind of push them into the martyrdom category and make their lives harder than necessary - we are all allowed a good moan now and then surely.

When I think of actual examples of denying personal responsibility, it would be things like, “I took out a loan but don’t want to pay for it anymore, why should I have to, the bank is being mean to me”.

And even then, I think problems like this are caused by structural inequalities in society, lack of education and the constant glorification of materialism and money we are all subjected to.

@Someonetookmyname I do think personal responsibility is going out the window but also so is empathy and compassion.

This, with bells on. An awful lot of what's portrayed on MSM is a distortion of what the real situation actually is, to increase viewing figures/likes/RT etc. Playing on lazy stereotypes. Getting people angry at how stupid or scrounging others supposedly are gets media attention and brings money in, so it's big business.

There's also this element of 'this would never happen to me, I'd never be so stupid and get scammed etc' so these kind of programmes enforce a sense of moral superiority and the victim is just MSM fodder.

Why not just try and really get to know other people in your community and try and understand their circumstances before blaming them?

I do think personal responsibility is going out the window but also so is empathy and compassion.

Cause and effect perhaps? Empathy running dry as it is sucked away by so many undeserving people?

@Wondermule

I do think personal responsibility is going out the window but also so is empathy and compassion.

Cause and effect perhaps? Empathy running dry as it is sucked away by so many undeserving people?

Yes!

And to a PP's point - I don't believe that if you make a choice you can then complain about it. It was your decision to go down that path, you were not forced to. You can't then complain about it IMO.

Actually I think there’s something in that. We are expected to spend a lot of emotional energy reassuring people who are the authors of their own misfortunes, and I think it’s switching people off.

I really do believe half of people in life are emotional vampires and the other half are their long suffering prey.

If everyone took a bit of responsibility for themselves, imagine how much less stressed everyone else would be. It’s okay for the vampires, they’re the ones ‘being looked after’. It’s everyone else who suffers having to deal with their own problems in life as well as pick up after the irresponsible.

@Wondermule

Actually I think there’s something in that. We are expected to spend a lot of emotional energy reassuring people who are the authors of their own misfortunes, and I think it’s switching people off.

I really do believe half of people in life are emotional vampires and the other half are their long suffering prey.

If everyone took a bit of responsibility for themselves, imagine how much less stressed everyone else would be. It’s okay for the vampires, they’re the ones ‘being looked after’. It’s everyone else who suffers having to deal with their own problems in life as well as pick up after the irresponsible.

Actually the vast majority of people are somewhere in the middle, being one or the other at some point in their lives, in certain circumstances etc. What they take and give ebbs and flows as they go through life.

Then you have extremes at each end if the spectrum , which as history has shown us are never good.

Life is never black and white, good and bad, givers and takers.

My son is 45 and still has trouble leading his life . He suffers from depression and I also suspect he has undiagnosed ADHD . He gets by but lurches from one situation to another and I have to guide him a lot .
His last exGF was a nightmare. She has had 8 children ,5 of which were taken into care years ago . One lives with her DGm and the youngest two are with her . She wants them to be diagnosed with developmental delay of some sort . Kept taking her 18 month old to the doctors saying he couldn't walk or talk . He referred her to a specialist and when she got together with my DS was waiting for an appointment . Within a couple of weeks of him moving in my son had her toddler walking and saying several words . She wasn't happy cos she wouldn't be able to claim extra benefits for him ! The reason that he couldn't walk was because she never allowed him to . She kept him either in a buggy or a high hair so he didn't make a mess of the house .
She was also obsessed with being pregnant and announced another pregnancy after only a few weeks of being with my son . She then had a miscarriage. I told my son to use condoms because a cycle of pregnancy and miscarriage was bad for her mental health . They broke up and two months later she phoned him whilst he was in my car , saying that she had lost a baby the previous week and did he want half of the ashes . She and her family all love the drama .
They all go through life from one state of chaos to another . Nobody works or ever has done

@Ken1976

How has it been for you Ken, emotionally supporting your son? Do you feel he could’ve tried harder, or made better choices?

Looked at another way, the lived experience of women tends to be -sexually assaulted or raped/no justice but has to live with the lifelong consequences, bullied at school/ no justice but ditto/ paid less and work and until recently not promoted and/or bullied/no justice but has to live with this/ forced into low paid part time jobs when the kids arrive and has to do the majority of the housework and childcare and/or all of the work if the man walks away/ no justice and she has to live with the consequences.

In all of these situations until recently society has shrugged it's shoulders and said "oh well, that's how things are". Thankfully, things are changing. So when we talk about personal responsibility we also have to look at the wider context and learn our lessons there. As women we often shoulder the responsibility for other peoples decisions or actions.

Circumstances are a big part of people's destruction though I agree personal responsibility has gone out the window for some people.

I do think personal responsibility is going out the window but also so is empathy and compassion.

Cause and effect perhaps? Empathy running dry as it is sucked away by so many undeserving people

I think it’s more a result of the privileged in society living in a bubble, and having no idea of the challenges the under privileged face.

Ie they’ll see a crack addict and think “what a stupid decision to take crack”. It won’t cross their mind that the addict may have been abused as a child, and introduced to crack as a teenager when they didn’t know any better. Because in their world something like this wouldn’t happen.

@Someonetookmyname

I do think personal responsibility is going out the window but also so is empathy and compassion.

Cause and effect perhaps? Empathy running dry as it is sucked away by so many undeserving people

I think it’s more a result of the privileged in society living in a bubble, and having no idea of the challenges the under privileged face.

Ie they’ll see a crack addict and think “what a stupid decision to take crack”. It won’t cross their mind that the addict may have been abused as a child, and introduced to crack as a teenager when they didn’t know any better. Because in their world something like this wouldn’t happen.

I have to strongly disagree with this. Of course we know the challenges the underprivileged face, whether or not wealthier people then few inclined to vote in a way that improves the situation is another matter.

But generally, averagely wealthy people are much more clued up about poverty and privilege than 50 years ago - there are endless documentaries on the topic, endless news items, endless stories being shared on Facebook, much talk over food banks (especially since COVID), much talk of austerity and the challenges people face (since the Tory government) etc etc

It really does seem fashionable to say there is no state support/public awareness about a topic just because it hasn’t been ‘solved’.

@Rainbowroads

Completely agree. I work in HE and the number of students I have who claim they are incapable of engaging with anything remotely challenging due to “anxiety” or “mental health difficulties” is ridiculous. The vast majority of these students do not have clinically diagnosed mental health problems - but they are asked to do a presentation which is naturally a bit scary and they cannot cope with those feelings. I get very frustrated as the university then requires us to develop an alternative assignment for them so that they can still pass the course without ever having to do anything that makes them feel challenged or uncomfortable. If you try to argue against this then you are deemed to be “unsupportive” even though there are really valuable lessons to be learned from doing something that scares us. And so the cycle continues.

I can see why employers say that schools and universities are not producing leavers/graduates who are ready for the world of work. We create environments around young people that remove all risk of failure and everything is always someone else’s fault, or if it can’t be then it we blame our mental health.

Yes I think you’re right.

I was always very quiet at school and would have never answered any questions, even though I knew the answer. I was petrified of the thought of public speaking.

We had to do presentations as part of our degree, and I used to be so nervous beforehand, to the point of feeling physically sick, but I did it and it got a bit easier, although I never enjoyed it!

I suppose now people in my position would just play the anxiety card and be let off....

But generally, averagely wealthy people are much more clued up about poverty and privilege than 50 years ago - there are endless documentaries on the topic, endless news items, endless stories being shared on Facebook, much talk over food banks (especially since COVID), much talk of austerity and the challenges people face (since the Tory government) etc etc

I think there are a lot more “averagely wealthy” people now than 50 years ago. And greater income inequality. 50 years ago you could work a minimum wage job and still buy a house. Working class actually meant you worked, you didn’t live on benefits. The huge underclass we have now would probably shock the averagely wealthy of 50 years ago.

I can’t say I’ve seen many stories about the poor or food banks in my social media bubble recently. Posts about “being kind”, and recognising mental health struggles or trans issues seem to dominate - I would argue these are now the fashionable causes. The poor seem to have been forgotten about. Or maybe it’s because people think the poor have “chosen” that life for themselves.