To think personal responsibility no longer exists

[Wondermule]

I know this is going to be a controversial post, so I’ve got my hard hat on 🪖

It has really dawned on me how little personal responsibility people take now. Every other thread seems to be someone posting to offload their problems (financially dependant relationship, COVID worries due to high BMI, hellish mother in law among the most common) yet there is always an excuse about why they can’t the advice given, usually drip feeding something about anxiety or mental health. Please don’t see this as me making light of mental health issues (sufferer here myself), but it doesn’t change the fact only you can make changes to your life.

Also many posts citing ‘lack of support’ - this one inspired by the chocolate button debacle! - a mum feeding her 3 month old chocolate buttons just didn’t have the ‘support’ or ‘education’ to make healthy choices apparently. Never mind the healthy start vouchers for fruit and veg, maternity grant, free weaning courses at children’s centres, all the help available online... it’s all the state’s fault. I feel ‘lack of support’ will be cited until the government send someone to prepare all her meals and police her shopping trolley.

I feel in being too sympathetic, it is just providing excuses for people not to take responsibility for their own choices. Or am I wrong??

Oh God, work appraisals.... I failed a successful sales call while working in a call centre because I was heard to be "breathing and sighing impatiently" while the customer was away from the phone getting their bank details. It meant no commission on the call. It was a sigh of relief due to actually getting a sale. As for breathing.... didn't realise it was considered that offensive....

There is a currently a series running on BBC1 about online dating scams. Usually people middle aged upwards being scammed by people using other people’s pictures and asking for money, promising to marry the person, getting a big inheritance etc. all sounds callous and cruel, right?
Here’s the thing, when it’s a 20 something woman/man showing interest in a middle aged, sometimes 60+ person online, only talking via WhatsApp, making declarations of love, what do these ‘victims’ think is happening there. You get elaborate stories about how they felt emotionally attached to this person and how they got taken in by ‘love’. Really? It’s nothing more than lust gone wrong. No ones fault but your own. Probably harsh, but true.

There is alot of judgement evidenced on this thread about poor life choices and resistance to change - but very little constructive input as to how change can be meaningfully communicated and implemented, beyond "Suck it up Buttercup"

I'd suggest the key word there is "choice". IME most favour supporting those who genuinely have no influence in their disadvantaged position, but while it's true that choices aren't made in a vacuum there really is only so much support others can give - especially if it's used to excuse continued lack of initiative

So maybe it comes down to imposing consequences where appropriate - but that involves judgement, and judgement's become a dirty word

“It sure as hell doesn't help anyone very fat having it pointed out to them, or that their children are fat. They already know”

I disagree @Graciebobcat, some do but very many don’t or are deeply in denial. Look at how many times a child is weighed at school and their parents are told they’re overweight and the parent comes to MN complaining that their child is just stocky/is healthy etc. and denies there’s a problem. People are often blind when it comes to their own children. Not to mention they may be unable to even understand what a healthy weight and body looks like due to their own issues around food.

It’s important to talk about as there’s a section of society currently trying to celebrate and idealise obesity and deny the health risks, claim that all obesity related illnesses are actually a result of fat shaming from doctors and so forth.

Over feeding your child to the extent they’re obese is a child welfare issue and children have been removed from their families in really extreme cases, there are many more where social services are legally bound to get involved due to risk to child. We have to call it what it is, neglect. Without getting into too much drift here you don’t refuse to call others forms of neglect and abuse what they are because resolving the problem and protecting the child isn’t easy or straightforward.

www.communitycare.co.uk/is-obesity-a-child-protection-issue/

“Dr Russell Viner and his colleagues say obesity alone is not a child protection concern but that there is growing evidence linking adolescent and adult obesity with childhood sexual abuse, violence and neglect.
Social workers should act if parents fail to engage with treatment for their child’s obesity (where it presents a morbidity risk) and should have a high index suspicion around children who are very obese because it could be a symptom of other forms of abuse.“

Anything that amounts to encouraging the OP to consider the impact of their own actions on the situation is quickly deemed as unsympathetic and at times bullying
We have lost the will to self-reflect in an unemotional way and any type of constructive criticism is deemed as an evil act

Beautifully put (as was the rest of the post) and this feeds in to what I was saying about support - all too often, it's only considered as such if it's exactly what someone wants to hear and addresses only the points they prefer to raise

Hence the point a PP made about work appraisals, which I also found very accurate

@Wondermule

And another - ‘I co sleep with and breastfeed my 4 year old, and I’m absolutely shattered and drained by them’

What happened to it being an abstract decision?

This morning it looks like you're using the thread to just laugh at people .

Your agenda is becoming more and more obvious.

@sst1234

There is a currently a series running on BBC1 about online dating scams. Usually people middle aged upwards being scammed by people using other people’s pictures and asking for money, promising to marry the person, getting a big inheritance etc. all sounds callous and cruel, right? Here’s the thing, when it’s a 20 something woman/man showing interest in a middle aged, sometimes 60+ person online, only talking via WhatsApp, making declarations of love, what do these ‘victims’ think is happening there. You get elaborate stories about how they felt emotionally attached to this person and how they got taken in by ‘love’. Really? It’s nothing more than lust gone wrong. No ones fault but your own. Probably harsh, but true.

Excellent point. Why don't those programmes interview the 'victim's' family and friends? Because they were either kept in the dark by the 'victim' or because they had been telling the 'victim' from early on that it was likely a scam and to walk away.

But then once the proverbial hits the fan, the programme focusses on how to catch and stop these scammers (and that's fine) but never on how the 'victim' should have known better (which should also be looked at).

I'm so fed up of grown men and women always trying to blame someone else for their shortcomings and decisions.

@JustAnotherPoster00

but really, why would they bother when they can get equal or more money for staying at home.

“Would love to see some evidence to back that nonsense claim up”

I don’t care enough to go and find stats, but anecdotally I know this to be true. Someone who had a once respected trade has calculated it pays more to sign on. It’s really sad.

Why can’t our government just make sure everyone who works gets a fair living wage, somewhere to live (that they won’t be evicted from), and enough to feed their family?

Is that such a big ask when so many in society have so much, and spend their cash on meaningless crap, whilst spoiling their bratty middle class children (I bet some of the women on here preaching about personal responsibility are guilty of this - I’ll admit I have been).

My point was that many, through no fault of their own are caught in a poverty trap that infantilises them. They are almost being conditioned not to take control of their own lives because they lack control in so many important areas - the ability to get a stable job, feed their kids and keep a roof over their head. They are then demonised by smug middle class posters who have often been born into privilege, or have inherited the genes to make them more likely to succeed (brains, personality type, no MH issues), or have just been plain lucky.

I do think personal responsibility is going out the window but also so is empathy and compassion.

Once the proverbial hits the fan, the programme focusses on how to catch and stop these scammers (and that's fine) but never on how the 'victim' should have known better (which should also be looked at)

Well yes, but the programmers make a handy living out of people coming forward to tell their tearstained stories, and if they focus on something the subjects would rather they didn't the supply could dry up

I'm not surprised. Work appraisals are often ridiculous and agonising and just a pointless corporate tick box exercise that don't help anyone
That's the point, 5hey shouldn't be and indeed should be a source for enhancement but when it's instantly seen as a mean for defensiveness and and sulkiness, it does become a tick box exercise. If you don't agree with a point raised, discuss it openly and maturely, it's ok to disagree, but that doesn't mean the person raising the concern systematically fit it wrong because we didn't like what they said.

The other thing that really gets be us that it is,perfectly ok to accuse someone of being a narcistic and indeed, we hear it all the time, but In MN world, laziness just doesn't exist a daring to call someone as such as a crime.

Well, sorry but many ARE lazy and laziness does account for many negative outcomes. Laziness is not something we are easily aware of because it might be too engrained in our lifestyle, but it doesn't take away the fact that compared to any previous generation, we have become much lazier, expecting to take part in fewest demanding tasks whilst maximising the relaxing, pleasurable ones.

but anecdotally I know this to be true

oh right then, seems solid

@JustAnotherPoster00

Oh ok cool, you’re just on here to be snide rather than just engage in an actual discussion, got it

It's not easy for people just to help themselves and get on with it. Some people don't know what is avalibe. Some people with mental illness will not act or manage in a logical way.

With drip feeding maybe there are things that the op did not think were important but as the thread went in they realised it needed to be added. Maybe they felt embarrassed who knows. But you can't always get everything out in an op.

Also with the healthy start voucher I read in my local area there are over 50% of people entitled but have not claimed. There must be a reason for that . Is it hard to claim ? Is it to complicated?

@Wondermule

This is possibly the worst, nastiest, most judgy misinformed thread I've seen in my 16 yrs on mumsnet.

I had to stop reading. Extremely frustrating and very sad. And yes - you have your get out card in that you reiterate you're only referring to people who can help themselves if they want to, however the issue you have is that you have no idea what that means.

The assumptions you make. The way you view and think about people. The judgement. The errors in judgement. And the overriding need to justify the way you see things as opposed to maybe taking a step back.

Horrible, horrible thread

Yes - YABVU

[quote MadMadaMim]@Wondermule

This is possibly the worst, nastiest, most judgy misinformed thread I've seen in my 16 yrs on mumsnet.

I had to stop reading. Extremely frustrating and very sad. And yes - you have your get out card in that you reiterate you're only referring to people who can help themselves if they want to, however the issue you have is that you have no idea what that means.

The assumptions you make. The way you view and think about people. The judgement. The errors in judgement. And the overriding need to justify the way you see things as opposed to maybe taking a step back.

Horrible, horrible thread

Yes - YABVU[/quote]
You didn’t stop reading though, you carried on until you could not control the urge to comment. Because you found it engaging. That’s after you clicked on the title knowing what the content would be. So really, you are entertained but also want to get in the 2 cents about ‘Be Kind’, because it sounds so very virtuous.
There is nothing kind about nannying people and saying ‘there, there, it’s not your fault, it’ll be ok’, when clearly it is their fault and they need to stop making the same mistake over and over.

[quote MadMadaMim]@Wondermule

This is possibly the worst, nastiest, most judgy misinformed thread I've seen in my 16 yrs on mumsnet.

I had to stop reading. Extremely frustrating and very sad. And yes - you have your get out card in that you reiterate you're only referring to people who can help themselves if they want to, however the issue you have is that you have no idea what that means.

The assumptions you make. The way you view and think about people. The judgement. The errors in judgement. And the overriding need to justify the way you see things as opposed to maybe taking a step back.

Horrible, horrible thread

Yes - YABVU[/quote]
🤷🏼‍♀️ Think you’ve made my point tbh. The nastiest thing you’ve seen in 16 years is someone suggesting people take a bit more responsibility for their lives if they can change them. Deary me.

I don't think anyone really advocates nannying though, I think there has been a lack of nuance and some very black and white thinking displayed. Some here, including myself are trying to take a middle ground and trying to find ways that are constructive yet not enabling.

Fault, blame and shame do not appear to work.

Neither does "There there poor thing".

Can we find an answer?

The human psyche is hard wired to look for and push back against unfair competitive advantage. That’s nature and and it is deeply ingrained in our Psychological make up. Nothing we can do to change it. How does that relate to this conversation? Well, if people are constantly shifting blame rather than owning their own shortcomings, that gives them an unfair competitive advantage, because they can get more for less. Others will start to resent it because they are choosing to be more self disciplined for not much more reward.
Ultimately humans believe in equality of opportunity, not outcome.Therefore when people make bad choices with the same knowledge and resources as someone else comparable, it will grate. The poll on this thread shows that.

It's not easy for people just to help themselves and get on with it

I agree completely, but then things that are really worth doing often aren't
It's also why some of us make a distinction between what's not easy and what's genuinely impossible (for whatever reason); unfortunately something that is easy is to say "Oh I can't do such-and-such" if it means someone else will do it instead

'here's a minority of people in the world who do struggle completely with everyday life, who have such bad mental health issues that they just can't cope. They will be in care for the rest of their lives sadly. They'll never leave it. The majority of the rest is just bad bloody parenting'

So my 18 year old daughter was caused by bad parenting then ffs

Seriously. What a joke.

She is now thankfully independent and is now at uni but what a struggle she had. She struggled hugely with anxiety even to the point she never went out and answered her phone only to 3 people. Me, her dad and her stepdad.

She was suicidal, routine driven, wouldnt look people in the eye and couldn't do presentations without a meltdown. But she because her mental health problems are not severe enough to be in care forever then her autism is obviously down to poor parenting. Oh do fuck off.
The adults in her life have worked hard to help her overcome many issues and do you know what her biggest achievement was for her..not a stars she got for her a levels but the fact she ordered a take away for herself for her and a housemate. At the age of 18.

Autism that first sentence should have

Fault, blame and shame do not appear to work.Neither does "There there poor thing".
Can we find an answer?

Increased living wage. Government help for those working and getting minimum wage to own a property one day. End to zero hours contracts. Empower people to take control of their lives through working and saving, whatever their job or socio economic status.

Shift in societal attitudes so that those doing low paid jobs are respected and that those doing high paid jobs that actually damage society aren’t.

Teach actual useful life skills in school - nutrition, managing personal finances, raising children etc.

Agree with the poster who said more corporate accountability. Especially for companies pushing unhealthy food, or targeting kids with unhealthy messages.

Just my opinion obviously.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

Fault, blame and shame do not appear to work.

Has anyone suggested blaming and shaming?

@Someonetookmyname
Nice wish list. Everyone wants the same, but working out how is the hard part. Not sure anyone would disagree with any of what you wrote. But what does that have to do with personal responsibility?

Has anyone suggested blaming and shaming

Oh come on, it’s all over this thread. Ie your own example of someone complaining about being tired because they cosleep with a toddler.

Ie blaming the mother for her tiredness because she cosleeps - and shaming her for doing it as it’s not the norm.

Whereas presumably a mother who parented in a way you found socially acceptable would probably be sympathised with for saying her toddler made her tired, because toddlers are bloody tiring.