To think personal responsibility no longer exists

[Wondermule]

I know this is going to be a controversial post, so I’ve got my hard hat on 🪖

It has really dawned on me how little personal responsibility people take now. Every other thread seems to be someone posting to offload their problems (financially dependant relationship, COVID worries due to high BMI, hellish mother in law among the most common) yet there is always an excuse about why they can’t the advice given, usually drip feeding something about anxiety or mental health. Please don’t see this as me making light of mental health issues (sufferer here myself), but it doesn’t change the fact only you can make changes to your life.

Also many posts citing ‘lack of support’ - this one inspired by the chocolate button debacle! - a mum feeding her 3 month old chocolate buttons just didn’t have the ‘support’ or ‘education’ to make healthy choices apparently. Never mind the healthy start vouchers for fruit and veg, maternity grant, free weaning courses at children’s centres, all the help available online... it’s all the state’s fault. I feel ‘lack of support’ will be cited until the government send someone to prepare all her meals and police her shopping trolley.

I feel in being too sympathetic, it is just providing excuses for people not to take responsibility for their own choices. Or am I wrong??

Also don’t think it helps that most young people now don’t have part-time jobs (which I accept is often not their fault as it definitely isn’t as easy as it used to be to get one). I learnt a lot from my teenage years of waitressing, washing up, mopping floors etc and - importantly - I got all of those job opportunities myself rather than via my mum or dad asking a friend to employ me or sending my cv around for me (seems to be more common now)

If you try to argue against this then you are deemed to be “unsupportive” even though there are really valuable lessons to be learned from doing something that scares us. And so the cycle continues

Exactly, either you unquestioningly encourage someone’s bad decision or you have to put yourself out to fix it, otherwise you’re not ‘supporting’ them!

I do think this is because society, and many parents, to not promote resilience. If somethings hard, it should be made easier/not compulsory/extra help. There is far too much praise for what should be basic expectations, over-praise for mediocrity. They are are given too many “outs” and excuses made for bad behaviour/lack of application/poor performance. It creates fragility and lack of resilience, I think, rather than the opposite. It also creates young people who have unrealistic expectations.

We used to take work experience from local school (agri-business/farming) and something akin to an apprenticeship from college. For every good, dedicated, hard-working young person we had (and we have had them), we had at least one who was problematic- something which we perceive to have worsened as time had gone on. A good proportion of these young people seem to struggle with basics like punctuality and taking instruction (seem convinced they know best). Many seem to resent doing tasks they don’t like/find boring/are hard-work- always an excuse/reason they can’t and complain of “being stressed” if pushed. It’s not infrequent that there is a view that set timescales or targets are, in fact, just vague guides which they can deviate from at will. Over the last 5 years, DH has had more parents contact me about their (adult) children to explain/make excuses for/apologise on behalf of them/take us to take for being unfair etc, than in the previous 10. A few weeks ago one mother phoned to complain that he had admonished her son for consistent lateness (often arriving bang on start time- I.e. not ready to start- or even 5-10 minutes late. So regularly starting 5-20 minutes late. Apparently, that was DH’s fault as he had not made it explicitly clear that the start time was expected to be punctual- “how could he know?”..... and also, in future could we please let her know before talking to him about disciplinary matters or any concerns we might have, as he found being reminded and them ultimately warned about time-keeping “stressful” and “almost couldn’t face coming back” due to this. He is 17, almost 18 years of age, and is being made an apprentice wage. Admittedly, this is the most jaw-dropping example of this, but it’s not new and is increasingly common.

This is true to be honest. I'm getting a bit fed up with everyone spouting they have anxiety and that's why they can't do certain things, like answer the phone in a job. They manage to answer the phone when it's their mobile though, or call a takeaway. Still speaking to a stranger then. I get being nervous about it, and that's all it is, it's nerves. I used to hate answering the phone and the idea of working in a call centre scared me, but there was no other job option so I took it. You get over the fear, you handle your nerves and you get on with it.

There's a minority of people in the world who do struggle completely with everyday life, who have such bad mental health issues that they just can't cope. They will be in care for the rest of their lives sadly. They'll never leave it. The majority of the rest is just bad bloody parenting. A lot of my cousins grew up not hearing the word no ever. Guaranteed, if their parents had come on here back then, you'd have all said they are autistic, adhd, etc. They are none of those things. They were spoilt rotten little shits who bullied and never got told no. They got away with everything. But they grew up, learnt how the world actually works and that mummy won't be able to save them all the time. They are much better now, with no intervention from the parents. They are a tad naive about some aspects of life, or maybe just new to it would be a better way of putting it, but they are trying. And they aren't stuck up spoilt little shits anymore.

There's so many kids like that, who's parents are blind to their faults and refuse to believe their precious child could do anything bad. Don't need to label the majority, you need to teach them better.

But no one likes to hear that, so good luck with the next generation. That's going to be fun.

Yanbu - there was a thread on here with a lady bemoaning that she wasnt high priority for a bigger council house. She was in a 2 bed with a 13 year old DD and a 6m old DS. She had planned that pregnancy knowing the house was the size it was. People were quite quick to point out she had made her bed and if she wanted something bigger she might need to private rent. I don't think find OP returned.

We, the adults, are creating this. Everyone wins, gets a go at pass the parcel etc. Some of them have never faced failure until an adult and therefore do not have the emotional resilience or skills to deal with it. They won't all get the job! We have created this - we have failed our children. Sad but true.

I do agree with you OP. Though obviously this is in a very general sense. Specific circumstances vary between cases obviously.

I agree with you wholeheartedly!

I completely agree, so many people now seem to have excuses for everything and shy away from any decision or action that is remotely difficult.

In the same way as @rawlikesushi experiences this via education I see it in the NHS with patients who take no personal action to improve their own health but expect the NHS to dole out tablets in ever increasing quantities. Apparently there was even a case where a patient with diabetes regularly missed appointments and was non-compliant with advice and medication then attempted to sue the NHS, when he lost a leg, for not making him attend and follow advice. Luckily the times when advice had been given were all recorded.
I'm not sure the NHS will cope for another generation as more and more we are asked to provide day-to-day common sense advice as well as medical expertise, the demand is rising all the time.

I am mid 30s and honestly find most of the general population pretty pathetic.

The lack of the most basic levels of resilience and responsibility somehow STILL surprises me.

My sibling works in education (pretty well respected / senior international body) and thinks modern western education has a lot to answer for!

I was out cleaning widows this afternoon and reminiscing with my neighbour about
"Bon a job" that Scouts used to do. As manager of a food company, she now has to teach new employees in their 20s how to sweep a floor.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

Yanbu - there was a thread on here with a lady bemoaning that she wasnt high priority for a bigger council house. She was in a 2 bed with a 13 year old DD and a 6m old DS. She had planned that pregnancy knowing the house was the size it was. People were quite quick to point out she had made her bed and if she wanted something bigger she might need to private rent. I don't think find OP returned.

I didn’t see this one. Was the dad around/providing?

This brings me on to another gripe - endless tales of deadbeat dads who have buggered off. Upon gentle questioning there were a million and one red flags before the woman got pregnant, but like an ostrich she buried her head in the sand and presumed things would ‘get better’. Then it’s hello universal credit, and another post about how difficult it is living on benefits etc*

*I know for every person like this there are many people who are on benefits through no fault of their own, I’m talking about this specific type of scenario.

I think it’s maybe an example of the pendulum swinging too far the other way. 30 or 40 years ago there were no allowances made for someone’s mental health problems and our education system (and most parents) were very authoritarian to the point where a lot of young people had a genuine lack of support and were expected to carry on as normal even in very difficult circumstances. Now it has arguably become the opposite whereby even when people are given huge amounts of support and help, if they don’t make good choices then it is still somehow someone else’s fault or there are a range of extenuating circumstances meaning that they were “unable to engage with the support offered”. People are given repeated chances even when they have failed to perform on several occasions.

This is true to be honest. I'm getting a bit fed up with everyone spouting they have anxiety and that's why they can't do certain things, like answer the phone in a job. They manage to answer the phone when it's their mobile though, or call a takeaway. Still speaking to a stranger then. hmm I get being nervous about it, and that's all it is, it's nerves.

^^ so true. I have a diagnosed anxiety disorder (social anxiety) and there’s a big difference between feeling nervous - which happens to us all, me included - and actually having a disorder. Mine was seriously getting in my way which is why I sought diagnosis and treatment. It drives me nuts when people say they can’t do something due to anxiety when it’s clearly not that much of a problem or they’d do something about it!

The anxiety thing really ticks me off. One of my daughters tends to be anxious and it's something I'm trying to help her learn strategies to deal with. I was the same at her age, really scared of social things in particular.

But basically she has learned from the school that she has anxiety, and things this is something that is a disease that will limit her and that she needs to see someone about. The school counsellor gave the whole class a test for anxiety and talked to them about it, IMO medicalising something that is completely normal in teen girls.

Trying to counter that message makes me the bad guy, which I find enraging.

@DemolitionBarbie

So when problems like obesity occur, it's because people have en masse become lazy and feckless, with no structural root cause like supermarkets deliberately getting people to overbuy unhealthy food?

Kids these days are born into a caged existence, supervised massively more than previous generations, way more exam pressure, student debt, impossibility of finding a steady job and affordable home let alone anything like a balanced family life. No wonder they're dependent. We made them that way because it suited us.

I agree with this. It's depressing.

@Rainbowroads

I think it’s maybe an example of the pendulum swinging too far the other way. 30 or 40 years ago there were no allowances made for someone’s mental health problems and our education system (and most parents) were very authoritarian to the point where a lot of young people had a genuine lack of support and were expected to carry on as normal even in very difficult circumstances. Now it has arguably become the opposite whereby even when people are given huge amounts of support and help, if they don’t make good choices then it is still somehow someone else’s fault or there are a range of extenuating circumstances meaning that they were “unable to engage with the support offered”. People are given repeated chances even when they have failed to perform on several occasions.

This in spades. I’m not saying I want to go back to the ‘good old days’ when kids walked to school in the snow without shoes, or parents left them at home to go down the pub etc.

Just that in our efforts to be a kinder society, we are inadvertently creating a society that feels that others are responsible for solving their problems.

@DaysAreGettingLongerNow

This is true to be honest. I'm getting a bit fed up with everyone spouting they have anxiety and that's why they can't do certain things, like answer the phone in a job. They manage to answer the phone when it's their mobile though, or call a takeaway. Still speaking to a stranger then. hmm I get being nervous about it, and that's all it is, it's nerves.

^^ so true. I have a diagnosed anxiety disorder (social anxiety) and there’s a big difference between feeling nervous - which happens to us all, me included - and actually having a disorder. Mine was seriously getting in my way which is why I sought diagnosis and treatment. It drives me nuts when people say they can’t do something due to anxiety when it’s clearly not that much of a problem or they’d do something about it!

Yeah there is a massive difference. With my issues on other things and the way snowflakes talk about anxiety, I could be diagnosed with it according to these Google experts. But I don't actually have it, I can work my way through it, it's just taking a while because my brain is being stubborn.

I think sone people do take personal responsibility both young and old , however there is a significant number of people do seem unable to take responsibility for their actions . Some people do suffer very poor mental health but many fir many people young and older this has become an excuse for not coping -yes this situation is awful and often things do not go according to plan , but that is life. Tragedy is different but the general complaints about metal health and how this can't be done or is a trigger does not teach resilience and self responsibility.

@rawalpindithelabrador why?

Social media probably doesn’t help either, and there has been a medicalisation of fairly normal levels of anxiety and mild distress. Teenage years are confusing, amazing and terrifying in equal measure and that is normal for everyone but girls now in particular are being told that this means they have a mental health problem and the world should be shaped around them to ensure they don’t have to face any challenges that might exacerbate any of their (totally normal) feelings.

Many of my students are absolutely terrified of “failure” - and by this I don’t mean they are scared of failing their whole degrees (even though the world would, unsurprisingly, keep on turning as normal if this were actually to happen). They are just terrified of doing slightly less well than they’d hoped on one small assignment. I often ask them “well, it’s true that it might happen. So what will you do if it does? What will you do next?” And they have clearly often not been asked that before. The answer is of course that they can dust themselves off and carry on, and try to learn from any mistakes they made to try to improve in the future. They usually manage to figure this out and realise that the world won’t suddenly end if they experience mild distress or disappointment. And that it doesn’t have to be someone else’s fault, or due to mental health problems. Just that sometimes things don’t go as well as we’d hoped, but that’s ok. This is a basic life lesson that many young people just don’t seem to have been taught now.

So many thoughts

The first point is around traditional left wing v right wing values.

Some people think it's best to look out for others in society, look to reasons they might not be coping or making good choices.. Believe that giving a hand, support, education etc will help pull them up.

Some believe that helping makes people soft. The safety net removes the drive to earn, improve etc. And this is worse for people as they are denied the impetus to get out there, try, enjoy the feeling of success etc.

I'm not going to comment on either, both sets think their way is the best thing for society.

On personal responsibility. That's interesting.

I had a talk at work about 'generations'. I'm Gen X. She said they tend to work to live. Expect it to be a slog. Expect things to be hard and life is a grind etc. And just get on with it.

That younger generations are more likely to say. Sod that. I want a job that works for me. I want to enjoy it. I'm really not sure that's such a bad thing.

I also don't recognise the characterisation of young people on here. They aren't all the same. And you get lazy sods of all ages.

@DemolitionBarbie

So when problems like obesity occur, it's because people have en masse become lazy and feckless, with no structural root cause like supermarkets deliberately getting people to overbuy unhealthy food?

Kids these days are born into a caged existence, supervised massively more than previous generations, way more exam pressure, student debt, impossibility of finding a steady job and affordable home let alone anything like a balanced family life. No wonder they're dependent. We made them that way because it suited us.

Not at all. But only they can make the changes needed to lose weight. There was a thread on this lately and the number of excuses posters made as to why they couldn’t lose weight was phenomenal. Of course some of the posts were understandable (medical conditions etc), but the majority were citing the ‘expense’ of eating healthily, lack of ‘education’, etc.

The kids having no freedom thing.

This is mainly down to way more cars rather than anything else.

Car ownership grew, letting younger children roam was less safe. As the numbers of children who could play out dwindled, the 'safety in numbers' thing was eroded. So it just spiralled downwards.

You see on here where people live in quiet places or cul De sacs the kids still play out.

The weight thing is an interesting example. I think there is no doubt that something on a society wide scale has been at work, and it would be a really good thing to address that.

But it's also true that someone who is overweight and wants to be thinner and/or healthier (which are not the same) can really only archive that by taking some kind of action on their own. Which may or may not work, but it's probably going to suck in a lot of ways even if it does work.

Many things are like that, even some pretty serious ones. I have some pretty serious addiction problems in my extended family. Whatever the underlying situations that cause it, no one overcomes it unless they decide to. THat's the pattern, and there are certain things that lead to that, an important one being a feeling that what you do can make a difference, and that you have a responsibility to others if not to yourself.

This gets into this thing about right vs left wing values that NiceGerbil mentions. I think the fact is that separating those things is completely useless. Any solution that neglects social structures won't work, and any attempt to change social structures without changing our interior landscape won't work. They need to support each other and have a kind of synchronicity.