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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that lesbians deserve a dating app that caters exclusively to lesbians?

475 replies

Glinner · 27/02/2021 16:32

Recently I opened an account with the app Her to bring attention to the many straight men invading lesbian dating apps by claiming a 'lesbian', 'queer' or 'trans' identity.

Given that lesbians are adult human females exclusively attracted to other adult human females, am I being unreasonable to believe that lesbians deserve spaces of their own, both online and in the real world?

OP posts:
Charley50 · 28/02/2021 20:08

@JustAmotherOne

No, that’s not what their ethos is, and no, it doesn’t over-ride anyone’s right to choose who they have sex with.

Inflammatory hyperbole is not helpful.

Sorry, i don't understand. It was you who just said it was their ethos. That their ethos is to include everybody, penises and all, but to exclude women who want to exclude men from their dating pool.
Mockolate · 28/02/2021 20:21

I am making the point that a woman is an adult human female and if an app claims to be for women then that’s who it should be for

Yes, and they're including trans women in their app and are clear in doing so.

gardenbird48 · 28/02/2021 20:32

@Mockolate

I am making the point that a woman is an adult human female and if an app claims to be for women then that’s who it should be for

Yes, and they're including trans women in their app and are clear in doing so.

I’m not talking about any one specific app - there seem to be several that claim to be for lesbians and I’m making the point that they can’t claim to be for lesbians and then redefine the word to mean something other than homosexual female (women only) in order to avoid misrepresentation according to the law.
Linning · 28/02/2021 23:04

There is no lesbian apps, specific to lesbians only. Just none. It’s always made clear that those are inclusive apps. If you had to cater for LESBIAN only then it means excluding bisexual/pan sexual women. They make up for probably 90%+ of the women loving women population.

The word lesbian app is used because if we used the word dating app, or queer dating app people wouldn’t know it’s aiming to principally target the women’s population. But all lesbian apps have never been for the exclusive use of lesbians and it’s always been made Chrystal clear.

I would personally never use an app like Giggle. Not because it excludes trans folks but because I refuse to use an app that use the study of bone structure to determine if one is male or female. It’s incredibly dehumanizing, completely ableist and remind me of the chart Germans had to determine if someone was a Jew. I am mortified they even though it was good idea. I can’t imagine what it would feel like to be born female but for any reason be detected by the app as male and be unable to join. I refused to have these type of apps be representative of what all lesbians want. I sure as heck don’t feel representated by Giggle and most definitely don’t agree with using softwares studying bone structures to determine anything about anyone. (Unless used in medical facilities to potentially help pose a diagnosis of some sort).

fridgepants · 28/02/2021 23:16

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the user's request.

Campervan69 · 28/02/2021 23:18

It would seem a sensible option to allow women to select the biological sex of female to search for on a lesbian app. Then tw could still join, but women who weren't interested could easily filter them out.

Changechangychange · 28/02/2021 23:30

Linning you are right, using facial recognition software to assign gender is hugely problematic - up to 30% of cisgender women of colour are mis-assigned as male, and there are massive problems with gender non-conforming women, like ooh I dunno, lots of dykes.

Basically it’s fine if you are femmey and blond with long hair, otherwise it’s totally hit and miss.

Mockolate · 28/02/2021 23:30

Not because it excludes trans folks but because I refuse to use an app that use the study of bone structure to determine if one is male or female

Shock How does that work then - what if a non trans woman got caught up in that, if someone was deemed too butch to join or something?! Wow lol "You can come in, but only if we deem you "female" enough!"
YetAnotherSpartacus · 28/02/2021 23:32

Campervan, I agree, but that might trigger screams of 'transphobia' because lesbians who have 'genital fetishes' for individuals without penises are discriminatory (it's a very popular argument in some spaces) and it would rely on self-reporting. It would still put women in vulnerable positions not knowing who they are really talking to. And, preempting calls of 'you can never know', no, you can't, but if women's dignity and safety was the operating principle here then everything would be done to safeguard this and it would be illogical to open the floodgates.

Changechangychange · 28/02/2021 23:38

@Mockolate

Not because it excludes trans folks but because I refuse to use an app that use the study of bone structure to determine if one is male or female Shock How does that work then - what if a non trans woman got caught up in that, if someone was deemed too butch to join or something?! Wow lol "You can come in, but only if we deem you "female" enough!"
Yeah basically

eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2019/12/us-government-study-ignites-racial-bias-debate-in-facial-recognition-tools/

Linning · 28/02/2021 23:49

@Campervan69

It would seem a sensible option to allow women to select the biological sex of female to search for on a lesbian app. Then tw could still join, but women who weren't interested could easily filter them out.
Yes. I agree it would be the most sensible option.
Linning · 28/02/2021 23:52

@Mockolate

Not because it excludes trans folks but because I refuse to use an app that use the study of bone structure to determine if one is male or female Shock How does that work then - what if a non trans woman got caught up in that, if someone was deemed too butch to join or something?! Wow lol "You can come in, but only if we deem you "female" enough!"
And yes unfortunately that’s exactly what it means.

We all know what has happened historically when people have used color or bone structure chart, and I can’t believe they came up with this “fool-proof” concept.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/03/2021 00:19

We all know what has happened historically when people have used color or bone structure chart, and I can’t believe they came up with this “fool-proof” concept

I can't either. The question here though would seem to be a scientific one - is it possible to create software and any necessary hardware to accurately predict biological sex? I'd be curious to know what the science said - i.e the computer science and biology journals (and not social media). I'd also be curious to know how this might compensate for cross-sex hormones and surgery that make faces look more male or female and indeed even alter bone structure.

Linning · 01/03/2021 00:27

@YetAnotherSpartacus

We all know what has happened historically when people have used color or bone structure chart, and I can’t believe they came up with this “fool-proof” concept

I can't either. The question here though would seem to be a scientific one - is it possible to create software and any necessary hardware to accurately predict biological sex? I'd be curious to know what the science said - i.e the computer science and biology journals (and not social media). I'd also be curious to know how this might compensate for cross-sex hormones and surgery that make faces look more male or female and indeed even alter bone structure.

Well I would wonder if males who have feminine features and bone structure also would be able to get in for example.

I don’t think any software would ever be fool-proof and I think due to the misuse of these type of charts/technology it would be dangerous to even try.

I also wonder if it would lead to actual women born women, being discriminated against and told they are trying to invade female spaces when they are trans etc....

Honestly the thought of what consequences/damages this type of (faillible) technology can do is quite horrifying when you think about it in depth.

Franticbutterfly · 01/03/2021 00:32

I agree with you OP.

Mockolate · 01/03/2021 00:57

I also wonder if it would lead to actual women born women, being discriminated against and told they are trying to invade female spaces when they are trans etc....
Honestly the thought of what consequences/damages this type of (faillible) technology can do is quite horrifying when you think about it in depth

Exactly

Linning · 01/03/2021 02:15

@Mockolate

I also wonder if it would lead to actual women born women, being discriminated against and told they are trying to invade female spaces when they are trans etc.... Honestly the thought of what consequences/damages this type of (faillible) technology can do is quite horrifying when you think about it in depth

Exactly

Would women like Rose Geil be accepted for example? ()

Probably not and would people like Glinner assume she is a man and lift her profile and post it for laughs and harassment purposes because he thinks bearded individuals on lesbian apps should be exposed and mocked?

The notion that one can always absolutely tell who was born with a vagina or who was not is very damaging, particularly to women. I am glad people like Rose Geil are out there showing off that women can in fact have a beard and look manly while still actually being women and that making assumptions based on ridiculous things such as «lack of facial hair» and bone structure is harmful and that taking the profile of random individuals and posting it online to be mocked is incredibly nasty.

.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/03/2021 09:07

We are speculating over a computational device that we know nothing about and which if it is unlikely to be in order to enhance women's dignity, safety and recognition of their individual sexual desire, because, frankly, none of these things has ever been front and centre for researchers or policy makers.

Lesbians deserve to know the biological sex or birth sex of the person they are chatting with online.

If they have a desire for women and not men then this needs to be respected - otherwise, it is lesbophobia.

We live in a world where men have historically and continue in the current world to harass, assault, intimidate, rape and murder women.

Lesbian women need a way of making damn sure that they know the sex of the person they are communicating with on dating apps for their own safety. Their dignity and desire is important too.

All of these apps, whether for straight or lesbian women, need to be made safer.

Women's safety must always be front and centre.

Glinner exposed a massive flaw in one app on the grounds of the above. Good for Glinner (although, mate, that eyeshadow makes you look awfully 70s).

As far as I am concerned he did well to do so.

Women should always have the right to say 'no' to dick no matter who that dick is or was attached to. That's the basis of consent.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 01/03/2021 09:20

Lesbian women need a way of making damn sure that they know the sex of the person they are communicating with on dating apps for their own safety. Their dignity and desire is important too

I think the app is a stupid idea and I don’t like it at all, those types of things never end well and as yetanothersays it wont enhance ‘women's dignity, safety and recognition

Bit of a shame that Giggle feels it needs to do it...wonder what would happen if they cancel the idea

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/03/2021 09:38

I don't do SM Rufus (except for MN and I see that more as an old-style discussion board) - do you think all dating apps for lesbian women (or women in general) are a bad idea or just Giggle? I ask because this thread started off discussing 'Her'.

Linning · 01/03/2021 09:44

@YetAnotherSpartacus

We are speculating over a computational device that we know nothing about and which if it is unlikely to be in order to enhance women's dignity, safety and recognition of their individual sexual desire, because, frankly, none of these things has ever been front and centre for researchers or policy makers.

Lesbians deserve to know the biological sex or birth sex of the person they are chatting with online.

If they have a desire for women and not men then this needs to be respected - otherwise, it is lesbophobia.

We live in a world where men have historically and continue in the current world to harass, assault, intimidate, rape and murder women.

Lesbian women need a way of making damn sure that they know the sex of the person they are communicating with on dating apps for their own safety. Their dignity and desire is important too.

All of these apps, whether for straight or lesbian women, need to be made safer.

Women's safety must always be front and centre.

Glinner exposed a massive flaw in one app on the grounds of the above. Good for Glinner (although, mate, that eyeshadow makes you look awfully 70s).

As far as I am concerned he did well to do so.

Women should always have the right to say 'no' to dick no matter who that dick is or was attached to. That's the basis of consent.

I agree with most of your points but there is no way to make 100% sure who you match with or talk to is a woman or even who they say they are until you meet them. Catfishing is a thing. Anyone could use a woman’s profile and pretend to be a woman or somebody they are not.

There are many fake women profiles on lesbian apps, and I find them more dangerous than trans profiles because with the profile of trans people you can usually either tell the person is trans or they usually state it.

Some people are working on new technologies that will allow people to use both the image and voice of someone who exists and have them say and do whatever you want.

You can find many examples online but here is one using president Obama:

Technology is getting out of hand and using stereotypes to figure out if the people we are talking to online are even real or male-born or female-born will be near on impossible.

Women simply have to assume that there is no way to know 100% for sure when online and they shouldn’t trust anyone to be who they say they are even if they are verified. Assuming you might be getting catch fish and not sharing/giving more of you to someone you perceive as a woman online more than you would want a man to find out is good advice, until you can meet in a public space and ensure the person’s identity.

We need to teach each other and our kids that there is no safe space on the internet. There should be, I agree. But the reality is that technology is continuously abused to try and scam or lure others and NO space on the internet can be trusted.

Like the article that was shared by a PP on how even an app like Giggle that promises a safe space for females only actually enable anyone (through safety issues) to not only access their members pictures but also phone numbers and home addresses.

The internet simply isn’t a space where one can trust they are in anyway shape or form safe or that they are talking to who they think they are talking.

And thinking that a female only space will prevent men from getting in and potentially abusing or luring women and harming them is faillible logic. A false sense of safety is often more dangerous than being on the edge.

As a lesbian on lesbian apps I don’t fear trans individuals because I already can tell they are trans so I can avoid interacting with them on the dating app if I want to, which make their presence irrelevant to me, I on the other hand can’t always tell for sure if the profiles of the women I am talking to are in fact real or actually were created by a man (men who are more likely to be predatory than trans individuals who are honest about the fact they are trans).

Which is why I don’t necessarily agree with the OP like yes lesbians and women should be able to have their own safe spaces that doesn’t involve humans with penises BUT I don’t necessarily believe those places can exist on the internet or at least not with the current technology available, and therefore I would MUCH rather be in an inclusive space where I can tell quickly (or more likely) if someone I am talking to as a penis vs being in a space that sells me the image of a penis-free environment but is actually 50% men under fake profiles that are undetectable as I personally find that much more dangerous and much more likely to end up in harm.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 01/03/2021 09:46

@YetAnotherSpartacus

I don't do SM Rufus (except for MN and I see that more as an old-style discussion board) - do you think all dating apps for lesbian women (or women in general) are a bad idea or just Giggle? I ask because this thread started off discussing 'Her'.
Oopsie

No I don’t do social media either

Should have clarified i meant the scanny face thing

And actually you are completely correct i got distracted from the subject

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 01/03/2021 09:47

Not dating apps....

I know loads of people who have used dating apps

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/03/2021 10:08

I agree with most of your points but there is no way to make 100% sure who you match with or talk to is a woman or even who they say they are until you meet them. Catfishing is a thing. Anyone could use a woman’s profile and pretend to be a woman or somebody they are not

I'm not arguing with your other points Linning because there is no way in hell I'd use a 'dating app' - being straight, fat, post 50, and female I know exactly what would happen, and anyway, post-menopause, men uniformly look like slugs to me. I did think Glinner was cute in a kind of. away though. I prefer a nice glass of wine and a cat. I don't have the latter and confess that I do search cat sites for my perfect feline companion, but feel safe enough I won't find a dog or rat posing as a cat.

However, I do find that this response responsibilises women to beware of men. I am not a fan of 'because it might happen let's open the stable door'. I'm more a fan of let's do what we can to protect women, realising that women must always be wary - but let's lower the odds.

feelingverylazytoday · 01/03/2021 10:13

@Mockolate

I am making the point that a woman is an adult human female and if an app claims to be for women then that’s who it should be for

Yes, and they're including trans women in their app and are clear in doing so.

They're including 'Lesbians' in their app though. Are you forgetting that lesbians are a legally defined and protected group under the Equality act, as being exclusively attracted to the same sex ? If this app is including this legally defined group in their customer base they have to ensure a safe and non discriminatory enviroment for that group, otherwise they're in danger of breaking the law. Is this app doing everything it can to protect lesbians in their legally protected pursuit of seeking same sex partners? There appears to be some evidence to the contrary.
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