ToNot be forced to be vegetarian?

[Puddingypops]

It’s a problem, it really is.

I love my DP, we have been together 5 years. He has recently taken on a climate change project at work and has decided he (we) should be vegetarian for the sake of climate change.

I agree that it could help, but for the record, I dont drive, (we have no car), I recycle everything, I don’t waste food, I haven’t been on a plane in more than 10 years and won’t (I’m not a well person). My carbon footprint is low compared to many.

I agreed to take small changes and substitute beef mince for soya mince (because beef I believe is the worst for carbon emissions) but my son is intolerant of it and had a very gassy and smelly reaction (so bad his trumping even scared the dog!!!).

So I’m thinking to try turkey or pork mince instead, but after a week that’s all not good enough for DP and he wants full vegetarian for all of us, he is refusing to eat meat and keep going in about it and it’s making me angry.

I don’t drink, I don’t go out much (again because I am not well) so good is a great pleasure to me (not in an unhealthy way I’m a size 8). I keep saying to him he can be a vegetarian, but I’m getting sick of hearing about it, first thing he said this morning was “so is exDH becoming vegetarian too?” (My ex DH who we are all good friends with).

Aggghhhh I don’t want to be a vegetarian!!! I feel like I give an inch in making small changes but now that’s not good enough and I hate being told what to do especially when I have few pleasures left in life due to being so poorly for the last 8 years!what should I do?

I did what your OH is doing a year ago (as in went veggie for environmental reasons) but it would never occur to me to push the husband or kids into it. I do 95% of the cooking (which I enjoy) and so DH eats veggie by default a few days a week. But we also get at least one takeaway and one or two comfort meals where he will eat something like a pie or a Kiev and I will eat a veggie equivalent.

When we do eat veggie food together though I have long since given up on meat substitutes in regular recipes and they are always disappointing. Recipes that are naturally veggie are the way to go... lots of lovely Indian food for example.
Even though I’ve gone full veggie I still don’t get people who go all in militant on every environmental issue. It’s an absolute minefield and someone will always find fault with one of your choices. So I just do my best, avoid plastic where I can but accept it’s not 100% realistic etc.

We do need to eat less meat. But eating some meat is not an environmental disaster, and given your overall lifestyle, you have a bit more credit in the bank than most. Plus the fact some people are in better health with some meat in their diet.

I'd do a bit of research, pull out your 3 simple points re the above, explain them to him - say you don't want to argue it, you will have to agree to disagree. Every time he tries to engage push back firmly. And then cook meat/fish 3 times a week and tell him that if it's easy to do an adaption you will, otherwise he'll have to make himself something else.

Good article here to get started
www.bbc.co.uk/food/articles/meat_environment

The 'soya in plant-based food comes from chopping down rainforests' line above is bollocks though. Rainforests are chopped down to grow soya for animal feed, for meat production.

The companies that supply organic tofu to the UK market do not grow it in that way. Even if some of the soya mince in plant-based products you can buy here did come from that route, it would be a tiny, tiny proportion of the amount that goes, far more inefficiently, into making protein for human consumption via meat production.

There was an interesting episode of Horizon in January (might still be on iplayer) about the climate impacts of different foods, illustrated through a dinner, where four people chose different meals and were scored on them. The vegan tofu dish gained a very low score indeed (and the soya for human consumption vs for meat production angle was discussed). Unfortunately the vegan had been given asparagus flown in from Peru, as a starter.

A bit of a diversion but one thing that came across really powerfully was how very much higher the score was for red meat than for some other animal-based foods and that eating less of the higher-scoring things, smaller portions or less often, makes a big difference.

I say this as a vegetarian who eats vegan food about 90% of the time but am completely uncertain about the legitimacy of any ethical or environmental basis for doing so.

The environmental arguments are not clear cut. He should read “The Vegetarian Myth”. If he’s having dairy products, he should think about how much methane is being produced by those cows, and how much destruction is caused by the production of the crops to feed them. He might be more environmentally conscious if he were to forego dairy but eat mussels grown locally on a rope, for instance! If he were to choose veganism, what about the environmental destruction caused by massively increased agricultural demand for human consumption, irrigation, loss of fauna’s natural habitat etc, let alone the carbon footprint of his imported vegan burgers.

My point isn’t to invalidate the ethical considerations of vegetarians or vegans - as I say, I am one - but to say the issue is far from clear cut. It’s fine he’s made his choice; it’s not fine for him to be harping on to you about how it’s the only right one, and this must be intolerable for you! And there are plenty who would argue eating only locally, in season sustainably sourced products - animal and plant alike - is more ethically sound. It’s arguably harder to stay fully local and fully healthy as a vegetarian or, in particular, vegan. There are not clear answers to these questions and he’s a fool to think there are, in my opinion.

Becoming vegetarian or vegan is quite a major lifestyle change and does feel a bit like you've "seen the light" at first. Within a few months he'll get bored of it and either go back to eating meat or simply stop bringing it up every two seconds.

(because beef I believe is the worst for carbon emissions)

Pasture-reared British beef is some of the most sustainable in the world. Its emissions are half the global average and it doesn't contribute to deforestation. Lamb is even better.

This. The carbon footprint of local organic beef compared with many vegan staples like soya, quinoa, avocados

Are quinoa and avocados really vegan staples though? Personally I think avocado and quinoa both taste vile so I don't eat them. I don't drink almond milk either but then again maybe I am doing this whole vegan thing wrong .

*my point on agriculture, by the way, assumes that agricultural space will continue to be used to grow feed for animals alongside the increased demand to cater to vegans’/vegetarians’/flexi-vegans’/flexi-vegetarians’ demand too, as that’s the more realistic outlook compared to the whole human population suddenly becoming vegetarian and vegan, thereby leading to a significant reduction in agricultural space needed for animal feed.

AIBU can be a bear pit, but this is MN at its finest. You've had lots of great advice here

He has no right to dictate what you eat. Perhaps helpful if you phrase it as "I admire your dedication and respect your choices, but this feels as though you are controlling what I eat, and I don't like it". This may help him to see that it's not appropriate to force you to follow his choices

BTW, a sure way of minimising 'veggie flatulance' is to just put a very small amount of ginger in any dish, you won't taste it but it will reduce the effect a lot.

Just cook & chew properly people. I've never had a problem with this.

At least some flatulence issues imo is in who don't eat enough vegetables. Their bodies aren't used to digesting them.

You should tell him that his all or nothing approach will only push people further away!
I know, I've done it.
I spent ages watching videos, reading blogs intent on becoming zero waste but it just can't be done. Me, and most of my family have tried to become vegetarian or vegan and we all failed. However, I eat less meat, and so do the rest. It may not be No meat but we certainly eat less meat.

and meat is bad, what about oranges and bananas and avocados etc. food that comes from the other side of the planet?
Does he eat seasonally and locally?
What about his clothes? cotton and wool are organic and long lasting.
does he ever wear nylon? does he know about microplastic shedding when you wash your nylon clothes?
second hand everything?
what about shampoo bars? toothpaste and toothbrushes? razors?
Dry goods, canned goods

anything you buy in a supermarket is wrapped in plastic. before it goes on the shelves.

recycling is good, except it isn't. did you know that our recycling is shipped to other countries to recycle there because we can't recycle everything in the UK? there isn't even close to enough recycling plants to deal with our waste.

do you compost food scraps and paper/ cardboard? grow your own? keep chickens?
My grandad used to pluck the fresh chicken when he was a kid.
They used to eat a pigs head!
does your husband do that?

Everything we consume/ use/ do/ wear/ touch/ even bloody breathe is bad for the planet.
He can lead by example but he can't force his views onto you. I know, I'm your husband.
there are so many things he needs to change. It is a mountain of a list and he is an ant.
Well done for being environmentally conscious.

and well done to him for caring enough to make a change but I know from experience telling people they are bad or wrong for not doing xyz is only going to make them set their heels in.

and meat isn't bad! meat every day or every meal is bad.
Try to eat seasonally, try to grow a bit of your own, forage (even just blackberries), try to eat less meat, but don't try to change others behaviour.
model it.
and others will follow!

@ToadsThePeanutButterSnob

This. The carbon footprint of local organic beef compared with many vegan staples like soya, quinoa, avocados

Are quinoa and avocados really vegan staples though? Personally I think avocado and quinoa both taste vile so I don't eat them. I don't drink almond milk either but then again maybe I am doing this whole vegan thing wrong .

I know loads of vegans/vegetarians and none of them eat quinoa. Nor do they any more avocados than the average person in my experience.

The 'soya in plant-based food comes from chopping down rainforests' line above is bollocks though. Rainforests are chopped down to grow soya for animal feed, for meat production.
American meat production perhaps. There is hardly any soya in the diets of British cattle.

It's also worth pointing out that not all soya is grown in South America. Alpro get their soya beans from Europe.

Don’t do it then. So what if he’s annoyed. His stance sounds demanding and annoying

@DdraigGoch

The 'soya in plant-based food comes from chopping down rainforests' line above is bollocks though. Rainforests are chopped down to grow soya for animal feed, for meat production. American meat production perhaps. There is hardly any soya in the diets of British cattle.

But how much of the beef consumed by the average British consumer is actually British beef?

[quote Puddingypops]@Goatbriar I did mention to him the other day that exDH is thinking about giving up meat, but it’s only because he is currently in a major “smiths” phase and read a book by morrisy hahahaha he won’t actually do it! That’s why he has brought it up again.

Thanks everyone for all your support And good ideas, I think I need to sit and talk to DP and get him to come up with ideas for what I can substitute his meat with when I cook, we often have things like “garlic chicken breast, rice and hallumi salad” so I need to know what to give him instead of the meat element.[/quote]
so I need to know what to give him instead of the meat element

Nothing. I'm more than happy to cook and eat vegetarian meals but in his case, I'd just be leaving a gap on the plate where the meat should be.

Nothing worse than a new convert

I would suggest you say that you are willing to reduce your meat consumption and experiment but not give up completely, hes welcome to have separate meals!

There's lots of alternatives to soya mince btw, can't stand it - try green lentils and finely chopped mushrooms with Bolognese sauce for instance (also works in shepherds pie. I do use the "chicken" quorn in enchiladas,fajitas etc and paneer in curry but I also make lamb and chickpea curry using local hill raised lamb which is very environmentally friendly!

I love quinoa and avocados too. My godmother has an organic farm in S. America and she sends me her quinoa.

I totally agree about considering the carbon footprint of veggie foods tho. Exotic veg flown in by plane from far flung parts.

I know loads of vegans/vegetarians and none of them eat quinoa. Nor do they any more avocados than the average person in my experience.

The only people I know who eat avocados and quinoa also eat meat...

Personally as an avocado and quinoa hating vegan I just want one person to explain what either of those foods have to do with veganism. I'll wait...

You should not force or require him to eat meat, but your wishes should be respected too.

Actually Lottie soya is minimal in beef and almost not existent in lamb in the U.K. poultry and pork are the worst offenders.

*If he’s an environmentalist then he should probably choose food based on fact not fiction, less but better and local, preferably from regenerative farms would be a better environmental choice than the fallacy that is plant based alternatives.

Lamb has a very small environmental footprint, increase that. Either tell him to bog off or encourage him if he wants the moral high ground to actually look at the science. I assume he doesn’t have a smartphone he uses regularly? That’s far worse for the environment.

Livestock production in the U.K. only makes up 5% of GHG emissions, uses over 90% natural rainfall and supports biodiversity as only c. 11% of the landmass here is suitable for cropping. Most of the feed actually comes from waste, so bits of the plants we can’t eat + grass.

In terms of personal morality, ethical standards and making a fairer world, it's far more important for your DH to accept your autonomy and respect your right to a different POV. AS a husband and father , he needs to focus his own behaviour on tolerance, consideration, support .

  As a committed vegetarian he must surely be well aware that  many vegetarians  share homes with omnivores and politely  accommodate each others  choices.   HE's the one who needs to change  and adapt his behaviour.   He'll need to  do more cooking;  learn to  eat his different  meal in a calm tolerant atmosphere  while you  and your child eat and enjoy  what you prefer.   Hectoring you to eat what he wants,  making  a child eat food that disagrees with him, is just plain old  male chauvinist  pig  bullying.

@2bazookas

In terms of personal morality, ethical standards and making a fairer world, it's far more important for your DH to accept your autonomy and respect your right to a different POV. AS a husband and father , he needs to focus his own behaviour on tolerance, consideration, support .

  As a committed vegetarian he must surely be well aware that  many vegetarians  share homes with omnivores and politely  accommodate each others  choices.   HE's the one who needs to change  and adapt his behaviour.   He'll need to  do more cooking;  learn to  eat his different  meal in a calm tolerant atmosphere  while you  and your child eat and enjoy  what you prefer.   Hectoring you to eat what he wants,  making  a child eat food that disagrees with him, is just plain old  male chauvinist  pig  bullying.</div></div>

Very good post.

Tell him to piss off making demands of your body. I'm a vegetarian as is my partner, but that's through choice and it's a very personal one. Someone who doesn't want to be veggie will never stick to it.

It's not his choice to make for you.