Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

[Taoneusa]

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

It has to stop, we need to fight it together, not label people.

Naming white fragility and privilege isn't labelling people though.
It's literally naming something that exists, not labelling people themselves.
If it doesn't apply to someone, if they're not displaying it, how exactly is it labelling them?

Of course it exists, but you can't generalise and say you are privilaged to be white, because every white person isn't.
The same as all Black people aren't the same.
Although apparentely we aren't allowed in many venues and supermarkets because "they've had trouble before" oh, and the best one it's " Morrisons company policy" according to one poor young lady who'd been told to say it by her manager, spineless bastard.
So when you stand up and say I'm not white privilaged you are called fragile, inferring you can't see it. The reason why I object is because I can see it and experience/ see this on a daily basis.
I'm fortunate to be in the position to research, campaign and become involved in activism and I do at every opportunity.

Of course it exists, but you can't generalise and say you are privilaged to be white, because every white person isn't.

It's the privilege of having white skin for want of a better term - not what you do or don't have materialistically.
Every white person has their white skin privilege so not sure what you mean there.

Although apparentely we aren't allowed in many venues and supermarkets because "they've had trouble before" oh, and the best one it's " Morrisons company policy" according to one poor young lady who'd been told to say it by her manager, spineless bastard
Sorry, not sure who you mean here, who aren't allowed in many venues because of trouble before?
White people?

@Mockolate

White fragility is along with white privelege another offensive statement.

How is it?
Seriously?
I mean, how is it offending me?
White privilege is a fact, whether you want to acknowledge it or stay in denial or whatever.
I'm not offended by white fragility either.
It's just another phrase.
Which does describe some of the comments on here pretty accurately!

' I'm not offended by it , it's not offending me therefore it isnt. Therefore everyone else is wrong'

Pretty much your comment?

I'm Romany Gypsy and census day we will be counted.
I doubt many will out of fear, lack of education, tradition.
I have my fingers crossed for the younger generation.
Do you know I've never heard anyone say Oh, your a gypsy I bet your glad your skin is white.
It makes no difference, so instead of allowing my blood pressure to rise, I try to educate, campaign and I'm taking one in the arm on wednesday and I'm petrified.

@Mockolate

The term just creates further divides and does nothing to fight racism at all.

Surely to fight racism you have to acknowledge the fact there is white privilege in the first place, and to understand that white fragility is actually a thing, regardless of whether you take offence at the terms or not.
What, should black people just never mention it, in case someone white takes offence?
Nothing to see here, move along, you're just creating tensions by mentioning it in the first place?
How does that help anybody?
Maybe take a look why you're so offended by the terms?

I am because it's a racist term.

Is that OK with you?

[quote RootyT00t]@Linning, you didn't use the word but you said I don't like POC having an opinion. I'm pretty sure that would be a racist thing to do.[/quote]
Further proof that you understand NOTHING when it comes to racism.

Me saying YOU @Root00t don’t seem to like POC having an opinion (and I don’t think I worded it like that but I am too lazy to read back on my posts) isn’t a racist statement unless you suddenly think you, as an individual is now the representative of the entire white population (and even then it would be an inaccurate statement).

If I say:

• RootyT00t you sure don’t seem to like (insert whatever here) very much.

Is not me making a racist statement about you just because you happen to be white.

If I said;

• White people don’t seem to like (insert the same thing here) very much.

You would have more room to argue it’s racist (and again it would an inaccurate statement to make) but at least a bit more justifiable than you implying a statement I am making about you specifically is a statement I am making about all white people.

You (you specifically not you all “white people” as you seen to need obvious things to be spelled out) seem to be so massively ignorant when it comes to power imbalances and racism and unwilling to learn anything about racism that having a conversation with you about it would be a total waste of my time.

I am going to let you keep being offended by every poster and think you are being specifically oppressed and victim of racism on this thread, as it must be quite hard to live with such sensitivity levels and unawareness to the world around you.

Once again...

White privilege isn’t about you being ‘privileged’. It’s saying whatever shit you have going on in your life isn’t further exacerbated by the colour of your skin.

Do you know I've never heard anyone say Oh, your a gypsy I bet your glad your skin is white

As it was said upthread though, that isn't racism, it's xenophobia.
Both awful, but not the same.
You can be discriminated against for "being foreign" but with white skin, or discriminated against because black skin.
Both bad
Not the same though.
Being a white Brit does come with privileges you don't have to think about if you don't want to (I include myself here)

I am because it's a racist term

It really isn't.

@Mockolate

Do you know I've never heard anyone say Oh, your a gypsy I bet your glad your skin is white

As it was said upthread though, that isn't racism, it's xenophobia.
Both awful, but not the same.
You can be discriminated against for "being foreign" but with white skin, or discriminated against because black skin.
Both bad
Not the same though.
Being a white Brit does come with privileges you don't have to think about if you don't want to (I include myself here)

Well, we'll just have to differ. Having white skin has not prevented me and so many thousands of the Romany population experiencing racism, to a great extent.

@Devlesko but is the Romani population discriminated on the basis that they are white or that they are Romani? Would a white Romani you know be discriminated against if they where not Romani on the basis that they are white?

It’s the same thing for what happened between Tutsi and Hutu, was it racism? Were Tutsis being killed for being black or for being Tutsi?

Just like the Tutsi, Romani have been primarily discriminated and exterminated by people sharing their skin color.

The fact that Romani have been killed and suffered most of their ordeal in Europe where people share their skin color is telling of the fact while them being white wasn’t the reason to their discrimination and that their ordeal is more based on people rejecting the Roma culture etc...

Being white didn’t protect Romani people from being discriminated against, I agree. Being white isn’t a shield against all type of discrimination or even against potential extermination BUT being white wasn’t a factor in Romani’s ordeal so while it didn’t protect them, it also didn’t prejudice them and that’s the point we are trying to make.

White skin might not protect you but it doesn’t prejudice you and make things worse for you.

Is telling of the fact that them being white wasn’t the reason behind their discrimination and ordeal* is what I intended to write!

Sub-groups of white peoples can be, and very much have been, persecuted (LGBT+, Jews, etc) - but the reason for their persecution isn’t ‘simply’ the colour of the skin.

@Ijustreallywantacat

Drag was born out of the (often violent and legally enforced) oppression of gay and effeminate men. A middle finger from the oppressed class to society.

Minstrels were born out of the hatred and (often violent and legally enforced) oppression of black individuals.
A middle finger from society to the oppressed class.

Can you see the difference?

Drag has always been, and is especially nowadays, an art form that often goes beyond "dressing as a woman." As a PP said, you'll see aliens, robots and bald heads among the feminine forms. Besides which, I find it difficult to see it as mocking when they're covered in beautiful costumes and make up I couldn't even attempt.

Gay men have called each other 'sister', 'she' etc for generations outside of drag.

Great Post, whilst I do think there is a case to look at what drag has become with fresh eyes, I don't think the comparison with blackface is the place to start. Blackface caricatures were created to not only to play out stereotypes of black people, but as a way of reinforcing and celebrating their subjugation.

That said, I wonder how drag acts would translate if they were voiced and acted by a person appearing to be a straight man. What do the words voiced by a man sound like without the trappings of the makeup and wigs?

I think I am not opposed to drag per se (I just can't find myself getting worked up about widow twanky, which is probably more problematic from a race pov than sex). I do object to some of the more base content that is definitely offensive to women, an act called Anna Bortion, hideous and should be condemned.

@Mockolate

I am because it's a racist term

It really isn't.

White privilege or white fragility assumes that I am , feel or benefit a certain way due to the colour of my skin.

Racism is making judgements or assumptions against someone based on their skin.

The difference?

@Linning what a bizarre post.

'am going to let you keep being offended by every poster and think you are being specifically oppressed and victim of racism on this thread, as it must be quite hard to live with such sensitivity levels and unawareness to the world around you.'

I'm not any of those things. I just don't like the term.

And il explain for about the fourth term.

You said I didn't like your words as a person of colour.

Therefore implying I don't like POC having an opinion.

Therefore implying I am racist!

@Five67Eight

Once again...

White privilege isn’t about you being ‘privileged’. It’s saying whatever shit you have going on in your life isn’t further exacerbated by the colour of your skin.

But you know that how? Because I'm white?

I don’t think you can be helped @RootyT00t, your purposeful will to remain ignorant is tiring. Order yourself a couple of books on the topic, and educate yourself. Stop expecting others to go through the labour of having to beak feed you the answers and the education you lack because you are too lazy to google the answers to all of your questions or take a minute to grasp what’s being said before repeating yourself. It’s COVID time, surely you have the time?

Your willingness to keep on monopolizing a thread on a topic you seem to understand very little of by repeating yourself and continuously asking questions that have been answered a thousand times but whose answers you don’t seem to grasp or comprehend is quite bizarre indeed.

Therefore implying I am racist!

But you know that how? Because I'm white?

Oh Dear God lol , I just.....

@Five67Eight

Sub-groups of white peoples can be, and very much have been, persecuted (LGBT+, Jews, etc) - but the reason for their persecution isn’t ‘simply’ the colour of the skin.

No, it's racism irrelevant of skin colour. Black people experience racism the same as many white races. You do not need to be Black to experience racism, this is why the label "white privilage" is racist, it implies only Black people can use the term racism. It isn't xenophobia for Romany, it's bloody racism.

@Devlesko the term white privileges is the notion that white skin gives you the privilege of not making your life worse. It’s not even about the use of the word Racism.

Again, are Romani being discriminated on the basis that they are white or not? Are the discrimination they experienced due to the whiteness of their skin or not? Does the whiteness of their skin make a Romani’s in anyway worse or not? Would a white Romani have the same experience as a black Romani or do you think the difference of skin color would still manage to make an impact in how said Romani is treated both within the Romani community and outside of it?

Nobody would go to a Jewish person in a camp in 1944 and be like. “ I bet you are happy you are white.” Nobody would do that because white privileges, like shown during WW2 doesn’t save you from extermination if you have factors playing against you. BUT now imagine if Jews were all black. How many more of them do you think would have died? Not because black Jews would have had it worse but because MANY Jews were saved and are alive today or have kids and grand-kids who are alive today BECAUSE they managed to escape and one of the many reasons those people managed to escape was because they had the ability to blend with the local population (unless they wore the David’s star). If they had been black it would have been impossible for a lot of the people who managed to cross borders to be saved, because it would have been impossible for them to even get into a train station or anywhere without being spotted and arrested.

Being white didn’t save them, for many Jews it made no difference to the end of their life and the treatment they received but to some being white was the difference between life and death. Having that small thing that they didn’t get to pick but gave them the ability to blend, saved them.

If you can’t see how having the ability to blend in a society that is controlled by people that look like you (even if those people opposes you and try to exterminate you) can still bring you an advantage towards people who do not have that ability, then you are purposefully not grasping what people mean by white privileges. Like I said, it’s not a magic shield that saves you from death, abuse, rape or discrimination. It’s simply an asset that at least doesn’t add to it.

In WW2 many things made the difference in between a Jewish person who would live and a Jewish person who would not amongst them:

-Age

• Disability

-Physical abilities

• Health status

Amongst the factors that were not against Jews and used to send a Jewish person to the gas chamber:

-being white.

Being white at worst did nothing for them, but it did save some, it didn’t prejudice the ones that were in the camp though it obviously didn’t make their life (or death ) one bit better.

So yes, as shocking as it is even in the most dire circumstances for groups you would think are the most unfortunate in history/the world etc...

You can still talk about white privileges.

But we all have privileges. Whether we are black, white or not.

• I have the privilege of health

-I have the privilege of being mixed therefore whiter than my black family members and therefore find myself often treated differently (better than them)

• I am young and benefit from all that being young bring that one may not be able to do when they are both younger or much older than me

Etc...

The word privilege isn’t an insult. But it’s the little things that might make the difference under dire circumstances.

@Mockolate

Therefore implying I am racist!

But you know that how? Because I'm white?

Oh Dear God lol , I just.....

Yep, you're right Mockolate, you've convinced me with that one!

@Linning

I don’t think you can be helped *@RootyT00t*, your purposeful will to remain ignorant is tiring. Order yourself a couple of books on the topic, and educate yourself. Stop expecting others to go through the labour of having to beak feed you the answers and the education you lack because you are too lazy to google the answers to all of your questions or take a minute to grasp what’s being said before repeating yourself. It’s COVID time, surely you have the time?

Your willingness to keep on monopolizing a thread on a topic you seem to understand very little of by repeating yourself and continuously asking questions that have been answered a thousand times but whose answers you don’t seem to grasp or comprehend is quite bizarre indeed.

I'm not really monopolizing anything. I'm also not asking any questions.

I'm just challenging what you're saying rather than just blindly agreeing.

I'm ignorant , lazy, uneducated, blinded by my white privilege, bla bla bla.

No bother.

[quote Linning]@Devlesko the term white privileges is the notion that white skin gives you the privilege of not making your life worse. It’s not even about the use of the word Racism.

Again, are Romani being discriminated on the basis that they are white or not? Are the discrimination they experienced due to the whiteness of their skin or not? Does the whiteness of their skin make a Romani’s in anyway worse or not? Would a white Romani have the same experience as a black Romani or do you think the difference of skin color would still manage to make an impact in how said Romani is treated both within the Romani community and outside of it?

Nobody would go to a Jewish person in a camp in 1944 and be like. “ I bet you are happy you are white.” Nobody would do that because white privileges, like shown during WW2 doesn’t save you from extermination if you have factors playing against you. BUT now imagine if Jews were all black. How many more of them do you think would have died? Not because black Jews would have had it worse but because MANY Jews were saved and are alive today or have kids and grand-kids who are alive today BECAUSE they managed to escape and one of the many reasons those people managed to escape was because they had the ability to blend with the local population (unless they wore the David’s star). If they had been black it would have been impossible for a lot of the people who managed to cross borders to be saved, because it would have been impossible for them to even get into a train station or anywhere without being spotted and arrested.

Being white didn’t save them, for many Jews it made no difference to the end of their life and the treatment they received but to some being white was the difference between life and death. Having that small thing that they didn’t get to pick but gave them the ability to blend, saved them.

If you can’t see how having the ability to blend in a society that is controlled by people that look like you (even if those people opposes you and try to exterminate you) can still bring you an advantage towards people who do not have that ability, then you are purposefully not grasping what people mean by white privileges. Like I said, it’s not a magic shield that saves you from death, abuse, rape or discrimination. It’s simply an asset that at least doesn’t add to it.

In WW2 many things made the difference in between a Jewish person who would live and a Jewish person who would not amongst them:

-Age

• Disability

-Physical abilities

• Health status

Amongst the factors that were not against Jews and used to send a Jewish person to the gas chamber:

-being white.

Being white at worst did nothing for them, but it did save some, it didn’t prejudice the ones that were in the camp though it obviously didn’t make their life (or death ) one bit better.

So yes, as shocking as it is even in the most dire circumstances for groups you would think are the most unfortunate in history/the world etc...

You can still talk about white privileges.

But we all have privileges. Whether we are black, white or not.

• I have the privilege of health

-I have the privilege of being mixed therefore whiter than my black family members and therefore find myself often treated differently (better than them)

• I am young and benefit from all that being young bring that one may not be able to do when they are both younger or much older than me

Etc...

The word privilege isn’t an insult. But it’s the little things that might make the difference under dire circumstances.[/quote]
The word privilaged is an insult if you aren't.
You can dress it up as much as you like, but racism is racism and needs to be fought as one together.
Of course we all have different reasons/ issues for experiencing racism, I pity all races who suffer, irrespective of their skin colour or race
Unfortunately "White privilage" doesn't do that.
So if it isn't part of the solution it's part of the problem.
I have some mixed race cousins they have never reported any incidents of racism because they are Black, but they seem to think they would have if they weren't Romany.

Please don't think I don't get it because I do, and of course it needs addressing but I don't think this is the right way.
Privilage means beneffiting in some way, and I don't benefit from being white because I'm Romany, should other white races who experience racism feel "Privilaged" to not be Black, of course not.
Where would it stop? Your "privilaged"because people aren't racist about your culture, or your dress, or customs.