Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

[Taoneusa]

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

I'm not saying my life wouldn't change.

I'm saying that being white isn't a privilege and I hate the expression. Just my opinion.

I'm saying that being white isn't a privilege

Not even in the example I gave directly before your comment?
How is it not?

@Mockolate

I'm saying that being white isn't a privilege

Not even in the example I gave directly before your comment?
How is it not?

I missed your comment Mock, sorry .

I didn't say anything about travellers or Eastern Europeans (although I do believe they are treated badly and it's swept under the carpet).

But no, they wouldn't. I think that's a bit of an odd comment to make.

What is it about opening their mouths do you think identifies someone as a traveller? Do you honestly think there's nothing about their lifestyle or appearance that gives that away?

That aside, no matter how many times people give me examples, I will always absolutely detest that term. I think telling someone you don't know that they are privileged based on skin colour is utterly appalling. We would not be able to make any other judgement based on skin colour , apart from that.

@RootyT00t

I'm not saying my life wouldn't change.

I'm saying that being white isn't a privilege and I hate the expression. Just my opinion.

Can’t you understand that you admitting that your life would change if you were black means that you have privileges as a white person you would lose if you were black? Like really?

I can tell you a few things that would change for me if I woke up white tomorrow:

• I wouldn’t have to worry about people discriminating me based on my skin color.
• I wouldn’t have people commenting on my skin/hair and ask invasive questions or touch my body/hair without my consent all the bloody time.
• I would be able to hear news of black people being killed by the police without having to worry about it happening to me/my siblings/friends/kids and other people like me.

-I would be able to go travel without having to google how people with my skin color are treated and whether it’s a safe destination based on my skin color.

• I would be able to hear stories of casual and structural racism without being able to relate or fear it happening to me or my loved ones.
• history books wouldn’t be a constant reminder of how people like me have been murdered, enslaved, tortured, raped, and kidnapped on the sole basis of having the exact same skin color as me and would instead be about how people like me managed to create empire and gain territories, how people sharing my skin color managed to be royalty etc...
• I wouldn’t have the anxiety and fears black people have on a daily basis and likely would have no anxiety or fear related to my skin color.

Those are only a few of the things that would change for me if I woke up white tomorrow but kept all of my trauma and other hardships. So sorry to disagree with you that being white benefits no one and doesn’t protect you or save you from anything (which are massive benefits).

Being white is no one’s faults, but it does bring benefits and privileges and you are incredibly privileged indeed if you can’t see it.

@Linning

I'm not stupid. I can understand it. Doesn't mean I agree.

but telling me extremely privileged when I have made it excruciatingly clear how much that term offends me has made me completely ignore the rest of your post.

So you didn't read it then, when linnings post made some great points?
Even when she's telling you how it affects her as a black person, you say you're offended by the wording so you decided to completely ignore the post.
Wow,
Nice.

@Mockolate

So you didn't read it then, when linnings post made some great points? Even when she's telling you how it affects her as a black person, you say you're offended by the wording so you decided to completely ignore the post. Wow, Nice.

I said I didn't like the term white privilege.

Linning called me extremely privileged.

What am I supposed to do with that?

In obviously sorry that Linning has had those experiences, I obviously find it abhorrent we live in a world where these things happen, I obviously think it's vile and disgusting and the world should have no place for it. That goes without saying.

But the fact that my skin colour means I have to tolerate something I have repeatedly said I find offensive , because my skin colour is white, I think that is completely wrong. If someone told me they found a phrase abhorrent I wouldn't say ah it must be because you are (that phrase).

Nothing to do with skin colour. To do with basic respect.

I couldn't give a hoot what someone looks like. We all bleed the same. I respect everyone regardless of who they are and I am not unreasonable to expect the same back.

The fact that other people are racist is, unfortunately, not on me, and I will not be made to feel I constantly have to step down because of the colour of my skin when others are happy to disregard my feelings.

[quote RootyT00t]@Linning

I'm not stupid. I can understand it. Doesn't mean I agree.

but telling me extremely privileged when I have made it excruciatingly clear how much that term offends me has made me completely ignore the rest of your post.[/quote]
The fact that you purposely refuse to agree with facts and arguments you yourself made and agreed with (considering you admitted your life would be different if you were black vs white) mean that “stupid” might not be as wrong a qualifier as you seem to think (not that I would call you that myself). If you can’t see why you can’t both agree with the fact that being black would alter your life negatively and it being a disadvantage you don’t have to face as a white person not being black, then you can’t be helped.

I don’t mind you ignoring my post as you seem to like remaining ignorant anyway, so your will to remain ignorant doesn’t shock me one bit, though I find your will to prefer being offended and outraged at known facts over informing yourself quite sad though very telling.

The fact that you think I (and people of color in general) should not state facts because it offends you, is again you showing your privileges. You being offended doesn’t protect you from the truth otherwise racism wouldn’t exist now would it?

Also extreme privileges is saying “because I am not personally racist, I don’t benefit from being white at all even though I acknowledge black people are treated more poorly than me on the basis of their skin color which I don’t personally face as white individual. ” Which is what you have showcased.

Having white privileges doesn’t mean being racist or having an easily life it means that being white allows you a different life experience to being black (which you admitted is true).

Your line of thinking is akin to a man saying “ sexism doesn’t exist because I personally love women and treat them equally therefore being a man doesn’t benefit me. Though it’s true that women are often paid less and raped more than men. But again, being a man brings zero advantage to my life. I am treated exactly the same as a woman. The notion of sexism actually offend me because the notion I could benefit from being a man is a joke, surely. ”

No, Linnings, don't twist my words. You are really out of order.

I don't think anyone , regardless of the colour of their skin or where they come from, black, white, any ethnicity, should continuously state an opinion they know offends someone.

Nothing to do with people of colour.

I don't have to inform myself just because you've decided I do.

You have repeatedly used a phrase I have told you I find offensive, yet you not only repeated it but also called me it.

There is only one person riding rough shod and it isn't me.

It is interesting that in a debate about privilege and the 'upper hand' if you will, you are saying thst because I don't agree with the term you ar using I am ignorant , implied I'm stupid and also tried to claim I am against your views because you are a person of colour (which is even more offensive than your first remark).

Incidentally, you don't actually know my ethnicity, or anything about me.

If I repeatedly said something which you found offensive, I'd be hung out to dry.

Yet it's OK for you to do so and then call me ignorant.

Why? Because I'm not a person of colour so therefore must accept all phrases and agree with them because it's your experience.

Hence one of the many reasons why I can't stand the phrase white privilege.

You being offended by the term doesn't take away the fact it exists.

@Linning

Also extreme privileges is saying “because I am not personally racist, I don’t benefit from being white at all even though I acknowledge black people are treated more poorly than me on the basis of their skin color which I don’t personally face as white individual. ” Which is what you have showcased.

Having white privileges doesn’t mean being racist or having an easily life it means that being white allows you a different life experience to being black (which you admitted is true).

Your line of thinking is akin to a man saying “ sexism doesn’t exist because I personally love women and treat them equally therefore being a man doesn’t benefit me. Though it’s true that women are often paid less and raped more than men. But again, being a man brings zero advantage to my life. I am treated exactly the same as a woman. The notion of sexism actually offend me because the notion I could benefit from being a man is a joke, surely. ”

A man would absolutely have the right to have that opinion (apart from.when you said he is treated the same as a woman).

Oppressed classes cannot ride rough shod over what they feel to be privileged classes - I'm just as spiky on here with women who don't allow men an opinion on anything because they feel they are the lesser class.

It offends me, annoys me and I have never accepted.it. and no amount of emotive putting me into a box and telling me what I must think and feel and what a terrible ignorant person I am will change that.

@Mockolate

You being offended by the term doesn't take away the fact it exists.

Did I say it does? At any point?

@Mockolate if I used a phrase which offended @Linning, repeatedly , would you be as quick to jump in and defend me? No.

Why?

The answer is obvious, and completely goes against the point you're trying to make.

@RootyT00t

No, Linnings, don't twist my words. You are really out of order.

I don't think anyone , regardless of the colour of their skin or where they come from, black, white, any ethnicity, should continuously state an opinion they know offends someone.

Nothing to do with people of colour.

I don't have to inform myself just because you've decided I do.

You have repeatedly used a phrase I have told you I find offensive, yet you not only repeated it but also called me it.

There is only one person riding rough shod and it isn't me.

It is interesting that in a debate about privilege and the 'upper hand' if you will, you are saying thst because I don't agree with the term you ar using I am ignorant , implied I'm stupid and also tried to claim I am against your views because you are a person of colour (which is even more offensive than your first remark).

Incidentally, you don't actually know my ethnicity, or anything about me.

If I repeatedly said something which you found offensive, I'd be hung out to dry.

Yet it's OK for you to do so and then call me ignorant.

Why? Because I'm not a person of colour so therefore must accept all phrases and agree with them because it's your experience.

Hence one of the many reasons why I can't stand the phrase white privilege.

The term white privileges isn’t an insult to YOU.

The same way the term male privileges isn’t an insult to men.

It’s a fact.

If facts offend you, I can’t do nothing against that and I will NOT apologize for them.

If a man told you the the term sexism offends him as he doesn’t think men benefit from being men would you say “sorry don’t want to offend you?” No. You would say “sorry the truth is offensive to you but men do benefits from privileges on the basis of being male.”

You seem to think I should stop using facts because you are offended by them. I won’t. It’s not about respecting or disrespecting you. It’s about the fact that truth can be offensive and I don’t think one should have to apologize for it. Being offended at the term “white privileges” is on you. It’s on me to accommodate.

Also I am not offended at you not liking or agree with the term. The term is semantics. It’s almost meaningless, it’s you refusing to agree with the notion of white privileges that gets to me. What you think of the word is neither there nor here.

[quote RootyT00t]**@Mockolate* if I used a phrase which offended @Linning*, repeatedly , would you be as quick to jump in and defend me? No.

Why?

The answer is obvious, and completely goes against the point you're trying to make.[/quote]
Would I jump to defend you on the basis of what?

If someone mistreated you or discriminated you or was unfair to you I would 100% jump in to defend you. Not sure what you are asking or implying tbh.

Well, that'd depend on what was said that she took offense to, wouldn't it?
So can't really comment there.
Struggling to see why you're taking a term so personally, sorry.

Also nobody think you shouldn’t have an opinion but the same way a man saying “sexism doesn’t exist and it offends me” would provoke an eye roll, you saying “being white isn’t a privilege and the concept offends me.” Provokes a similar reaction.

In both cases it’s totally acceptable to think and believe that, as yes, you are entitled to your thoughts and opinions but having a right to an opinion doesn’t mean people should nod and say “sorry let’s not talk about sexism then because you don’t believe it in or find it the concept offensive.”

If you express your opinion, you open yourself to others people’s opinions and reaction over what you just said. It doesn’t mean you should change your stance or opinion. But thinking people should stop stating facts or using accurate language because you shared that truth/those facts offend you is a bit ridiculous honestly.

I didn't say it was an insult to me. Doesn't mean I like it.

Never asked you to apologise. I'm not that arrogant.

I don't think you should stop using anything , if you choose to continue to label me in a way I have told you I find offensive and call me ignorant thats up to you.

I find it a strange point of view that it's on the one on th receiving end to deal with and I wonder what th reaction would be if a white person offended a POC and then said well sorry it's what I think so get over it.

I am refusing to agree with it. And thats surely fine. We think differently and that's OK.

Anything else , including you riding roughshod over me , certainly wouldn't be privilege.

'The fact that you think I (and people of color in general) should not state facts because it offends you, is again you showing your privileges'

This is the comment that technically you should apologise for. You've effectively called me a racist who thinks POC shouldn't have opinions.

I also noticed you ignored my point about you not having the first clue about my family's ethnicity.

The thing is, as I said upthread, I'm appalled those things happen to you. Obviously.

But not agreeing to a term is my right and no amount of repeatedly saying it to me will change that.

@Linning

Also nobody think you shouldn’t have an opinion but the same way a man saying “sexism doesn’t exist and it offends me” would provoke an eye roll, you saying “being white isn’t a privilege and the concept offends me.” Provokes a similar reaction.

In both cases it’s totally acceptable to think and believe that, as yes, you are entitled to your thoughts and opinions but having a right to an opinion doesn’t mean people should nod and say “sorry let’s not talk about sexism then because you don’t believe it in or find it the concept offensive.”

If you express your opinion, you open yourself to others people’s opinions and reaction over what you just said. It doesn’t mean you should change your stance or opinion. But thinking people should stop stating facts or using accurate language because you shared that truth/those facts offend you is a bit ridiculous honestly.

Again, sexism is not comparable to white privilege.

'Using accurate language' in your opinion. You can use it, but when I say I don't agree with it and you repeatedly tell me that's because I'm privileged, that's odd behaviour.

You misread my first comment. It was to Mockolate who was defending your cause.

I was just interested to know the motivation for that, since it was just two people having a different opinion.

@Mockolate

Well, that'd depend on what was said that she took offense to, wouldn't it? So can't really comment there. Struggling to see why you're taking a term so personally, sorry.

I'm not taking it personally.

Linnings implying I think she can't have an opinion because she's a POC, I am absolutely taking that personally.

If I used a term that Linnings didn't like , I don't think you'd be as quick to say 'not liking it doesn't take away the fact it exists'.

My issue with arguments like this is that when you disagree with something like this, you can only be shouted down because the end is always that the person is black or the person is a woman and therefore part of the oppressed group and therefore you're wrong.

But the judgement of whether things are right and wrong based on skin colour and sex is exactly what we are trying to move away from.

Linnings believes in white privilege. I don't like the term and I don't support it.

The fact she is black and I am white.is not the crux of the argument here. It just means that I'm ignorant unless I agree with her. And I object to that.

Anyway, we have derailed.
Night all

@RootyT00t

I didn't say it was an insult to me. Doesn't mean I like it.

Never asked you to apologise. I'm not that arrogant.

I don't think you should stop using anything , if you choose to continue to label me in a way I have told you I find offensive and call me ignorant thats up to you.

I find it a strange point of view that it's on the one on th receiving end to deal with and I wonder what th reaction would be if a white person offended a POC and then said well sorry it's what I think so get over it.

I am refusing to agree with it. And thats surely fine. We think differently and that's OK.

Anything else , including you riding roughshod over me , certainly wouldn't be privilege.

'The fact that you think I (and people of color in general) should not state facts because it offends you, is again you showing your privileges'

This is the comment that technically you should apologise for. You've effectively called me a racist who thinks POC shouldn't have opinions.

I also noticed you ignored my point about you not having the first clue about my family's ethnicity.

The thing is, as I said upthread, I'm appalled those things happen to you. Obviously.

But not agreeing to a term is my right and no amount of repeatedly saying it to me will change that.

You are the one using emotive language. I am not.

I did not call you a racist. In fact I stated many times that there is no correlation with privileges and racism. It’s not because one is privileged that they are racist.

My comment was about you, asking people to not use the term white privilege because it offends you. You talk about it as the notion of being white being an advantage over being black is an opinion. It’s not an opinion. So when I am stating “white people have a privilege on the basis of their skin color.” I am not labeling you anything. I am stating a fact. I can’t alter that fact because it is a fact. Therefore I am not assigning a label to you, I am stating a fact about you. The same way you could say “you are at a disadvantage for being a person of color.” It doesn’t mean you think I am worth less or labeling me as anything pejorative, and in fact I might not lead a very different life from you at all but you would be stating a fact that being a person of color is likely to have altered my life even in the most minor way possible (how much would again depends on circumstances).

Your request for me to not use the term “white privilege” has been dismissed because it’s akin to ask someone to not use words like “sexism” or “heteronormative.” Those are accurate descriptors for specific concept that are happening in our society, I can’t change accurate terms on the sole basis they offend you.

Nothing to do with how I perceive you or me trying to label you as anything again, stating facts isn’t a judgment.

When I say “sexism is a thing.” I am not saying “all men are sexist” I am simply stating something exists and because it exists all men benefit from it (to which degree again is dependent on personal circumstances).

@RootyT00t well according to your absolutely stupid logic then I’m offended by the term ‘offended’ so pèse stop saying it as it offends it. I love how you didn’t respond to the comment about sexism as it conforms how utterly incoherent your logic is. Anyway. White privileged still exists whether you admit it or not (and you did admit it when you said your life would be d’offenser if you were black.

I don’t believe in white privilege or male privilege either. Many people don’t find them helpful concepts for understanding or explaining how sex and race discrimination work.

The amount of time people spend arguing that the concept of white privilege is essential to understanding racism suggests they are more bothered about promoting their ideology than they are about anti-racism.