Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

[Taoneusa]

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

I've never met a woman, however colourful or bombastic, who acted like a drag queen. I thought the point was that they're making fun of stereotypes, not women; the entire point is that they're not women and you'd never actually get a woman to behave like that.

That's why in pantomime, the joke is that the only person wearing ridiculous clothing and going on about how desirable they are as a woman is the dame...the person who quite clearly ISN'T a woman. Frequently the most masculine looking person in the cast.

This is what we see in between the shows. And the message I still LOVE YOURSELF, YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL.

Still no answer on the question of whether you'll pull people up whenever they try to equate racism and sexism @PheasantPlucker1 ?

I think you know it's problematic and wrong, but you're skirting the answer to that question. Why?

I find Rupaul's "ideal" of beauty extremely damaging to women. Beautiful is blonde, curvy, hourglass, manicured and painted to hide facial imperfections, is it? (I was going to use maquillaged, but is that ok in English?)

That’s his ideal for him, not for everyone else though. He also wears different candy-floured wigs. It’s the way he chooses to dress when in drag. He has never once said that that was the standard of beauty for women.

You’ve pretty much described Marilyn Monroe in your statement (other than the facial hair bit) who is still lauded over.

White men and women had more to do with your statement than RuPaul. I still recall the whole Marilyn vs Jackie O and there are still outdated references that still go on today about blondes and brunettes.

I think drag is a lot more varied and complex than "black face". A lot of it is playing on ideas and stereotypes around gender, sex and sexuality. It's also very self referencing and often is taking the piss out of itself. There is of course the history and connection with gay men and it's use to challenge ideas of what a man is, and allow people to express themselves. Some of it is crude and some of it references offensive ideas about women, sometimes this crosses a line. Most drag queens are not pretending to be women, they are pretending to be drag queens. I think it is simplistic to compare it to black face.

phoenixrosehere

I don't think "drag" (as a performance style) and pantomime are similar. I might say that the man playing the dame was "in drag", but it wouldn't be what I expected to see at a drag show. I admit I conflated them above, but I was really talking about "men in drag" i.e. dressed as women, rather than "men taking part in a drag show" who would be drag queens.

Drag is one of those things that I never used to mind -- I didn't like or dislike it, just not interested. But I didn't see it as harmful till the gender identity movement suddenly started intruding on my life. Now it looks like part of the transgender assault on women. Part of downgrading women to something easily brushed aside.

For years now, we've seen men self-identifying into women's jobs, women's professional sports, women's single-sex spaces of all kinds.

Now the English language is being changed to cut women out. "Government agrees to call pregnant women mothers" was a headline on the BBC news this morning! A change to maternity legislation had to be rewritten, after protests, to reinstate words for women, instead of "people".
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56204865

Suddenly the 'harmless' parodying of women seems less harmless.

Jurneo I did answer that. In some instances yes, in some no.

Ive had several of my posts about men performing drag deleted and the rest all reported so respectfully bowing out the convo as Im clearly deeply offending someone with my views on drag.

Its been interesting to read all the differing points of view however so thanks to all the posters who explained their points of view, even if we didnt agree!

I hardly think Marilyn Monroe is held up as the pinnacle for women in the 21st century. Jackie Vs Marilyn was 60 years ago.

Ok @PheasantPlucker1 appreciate your points of view. Based on what you've said about the similarities of the two parallel arguments, I think that lands at you saying "in some cases drag is okay and sometimes it's not", which seems to be view of the thread anyway. Mostly drag is okay, in some instances individuals probably cross a line.

It's too bad that even for the sake of your deeply held view, you couldn't bring yourself to agree to fight against this racist comparison.

I am happier to join arms with drag queens and fight the good fight for women than with the certain type of feminists who can't bear to hear it when they're told they're offending people and reinforcing oppression of the type they claim to hate.

I hardly think Marilyn Monroe is held up as the pinnacle for women in the 21st century. Jackie Vs Marilyn was 60 years ago.

Not saying she is still the pinnacle but she is lauded for her beauty despite the many surgeries she had to get it and you do still have the negative references of blondes vs brunettes. However, as I said before RuPal has never said that that was the standard of beauty to or for women.

Juneou That is absolutely not what I said, and considering what I have said has been deleted Id prefer you didnt put words in my mouth.

Thankyou.

and the rest all reported
There's no way of knowing what posts have just been reported, but not deleted so seems an unlikely statement

This is what we see in between the shows. And the message I still LOVE YOURSELF, YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL.

Exactly

The only drag queen I’ve seen has put me off me with the misogynistic stereotypes - catty, bitchy, hyper-sexualised parody of womanhood. Deliberately offensive names relating to women and their bodies (Anna Bortion, Ginger Minj etc).

It’s punching down. Women deserve more respect.

For those asking about drag kings - I can’t comment as I’ve never seen any. But my impulse is it’s probably fine, as women aren’t punching down.

JuneauBound
I am happier to join arms with drag queens and fight the good fight for women than with the certain type of feminists who can't bear to hear it when they're told they're offending people and reinforcing oppression of the type they claim to hate

100% this

Othering Black women, wilfully tone-deaf to the offence caused even when it's explained. No thank you.

The title of this post stinks. Sums it all up really in terms of it being thought appropriate to even think that way much less type it out.

Nah, it's not the same.
Hope that helps OP.

The only drag queen I’ve seen has put me off me with the misogynistic stereotypes - catty, bitchy, hyper-sexualised parody of womanhood. Deliberately offensive names relating to women and their bodies (Anna Bortion, Ginger Minj etc).

Being catty, bitchy and hyper sexualised is not exclusive to women. Thats just how some of the participants are. That's them. Have you watched Untucked?

As for the names, it's shock value and meant to be funny. I think its funny.

@Ijustreallywantacat

Drag was born out of the (often violent and legally enforced) oppression of gay and effeminate men. A middle finger from the oppressed class to society

Minstrels were born out of the hatred and (often violent and legally enforced) oppression of black individuals
A middle finger from society to the oppressed class

That's a great way of putting it, that's how I see it too.

@Cissyandflora
and it’s time for my opinion now because she’s already done had herses.

Sorry, daft question time, but what does that actually mean lol?!
as in "she's already done had herses?"
I hear Ru say it on Drag Race UK but never know what it means

[quote Mockolate]@Cissyandflora
and it’s time for my opinion now because she’s already done had herses.

Sorry, daft question time, but what does that actually mean lol?!
as in "she's already done had herses?"
I hear Ru say it on Drag Race UK but never know what it means [/quote]
“She’s already had hers”.

My only comment was I wouldnt correct the black women I know who say it, as thats not my place.

I find this statement almost amusing - that it's not her place to correct a black woman because the black woman is the one living that experience therefore her perception is justified. Yet it's totally fine to correct me and others who are comfortable with drag despite us knowing first hand the experience of being a woman.

I lost my viginity by being date raped. I've experienced covert and overt sexism in many forms. I've also experienced covert and overt racism. I personally feel that women who are in effect telling me I am unqualified to decide what is or isn't offensive to me are far more disrespectful of my position as a woman capable of thinking for herself than drag will ever be.

And as for people saying the B&W minstrel show was hugely popular back in the day - who was it popular with? It certainly wasn't vast numbers of black people. Drag however is hugely popular with vast numbers of women - we're not outliers with a minority view. The entire comparison, as well as being offensive, is ridiculous.

“She’s already had hers”.

Ah! Thank you
Makes more sense now lol

@PheasantPlucker1

Jurneo I did answer that. In some instances yes, in some no.

Ive had several of my posts about men performing drag deleted and the rest all reported so respectfully bowing out the convo as Im clearly deeply offending someone with my views on drag.

Its been interesting to read all the differing points of view however so thanks to all the posters who explained their points of view, even if we didnt agree!

I know we've disagreed but I didn't report you. I think that's a shame. You didn't say a single thing offensive pheasant and your views are as welcome as anyone elses.

@MyCatHatesEverybody

My only comment was I wouldnt correct the black women I know who say it, as thats not my place.

I find this statement almost amusing - that it's not her place to correct a black woman because the black woman is the one living that experience therefore her perception is justified. Yet it's totally fine to correct me and others who are comfortable with drag despite us knowing first hand the experience of being a woman.

I lost my viginity by being date raped. I've experienced covert and overt sexism in many forms. I've also experienced covert and overt racism. I personally feel that women who are in effect telling me I am unqualified to decide what is or isn't offensive to me are far more disrespectful of my position as a woman capable of thinking for herself than drag will ever be.

And as for people saying the B&W minstrel show was hugely popular back in the day - who was it popular with? It certainly wasn't vast numbers of black people. Drag however is hugely popular with vast numbers of women - we're not outliers with a minority view. The entire comparison, as well as being offensive, is ridiculous.

I agree.

We won't correct a black woman but we will tell all woman they are misogynistic and men servers if they don't absolutely hate drag