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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

651 replies

Taoneusa · 25/02/2021 15:28

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

OP posts:
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15
VestaTilley · 25/02/2021 15:42

Agree. It’s awful- just caricaturing women. And it’s nothing to do with being gay either- often drag queens are straight.

I actually complained to the BBC about Ru Paul’s Drag Race and the coverage on the BBC website- I got the wet reply from them you’d expect.

I’m sick of the mockery of women and the sexualised nature of everything that soaks our culture. To say nothing of the awfulness or Drag Queens in kids libraries.

VestaTilley · 25/02/2021 15:43

*of, that should say

AgathaX · 25/02/2021 15:44

I completely agree and frequently get pissed off that lots of other women don't seem to see this.

Onatinyboat · 25/02/2021 15:44

Agree completely. I have no idea how anyone can defend it.

TakeTheCuntOutOfScunthorpe · 25/02/2021 15:45

I completely agree. One is a playing on an outrageous, outdated stereotype of a marginalised group, and the other is blackface.

It's shocking that it seems to be more popular now - or at least, more prevalent. The BBC seems to be particularly obsessed with it (Drag Race, Mrs Brown)... I guess it ticks a few diversity boxes.

RaidersoftheLostAardvark · 25/02/2021 15:49

Yep, it is very offensive. I'd have some sympathy if they had women dressing up a parodies of men. Mocking women, travellers and poor people are still weirdly acceptable on mainstream TV.

MsOgyny · 25/02/2021 15:59

This reply has been deleted

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Cabinfever10 · 25/02/2021 16:00

Agreed I hate womenface and the derogatory terms like "fishy"🤬

ofwarren · 25/02/2021 16:02

Agreed, I really dislike drag. It's offensive and a caricature of women.

VampireTheBuffetSlayer · 25/02/2021 16:09

@Cabinfever10

Agreed I hate womenface and the derogatory terms like "fishy"🤬
It's steeped in misogyny. And the sexualised names and bitchiness.
StaciesSpace · 25/02/2021 16:10

I love drag and I've been to several drag shows. I don't necessarily think of it as a mockery, it's just comedic impersonation, the same as going to a pantomine! Drag is more appriecative though, and they come out with a better understand of what it is like to be a women (stereotyped to need to be pretty, sexualised by men in clubs, price difference in men/female products, sizing issues in stores), Yes it sometimes can be sexualised, but so is everything you hear on the radio, see on TV and even the clothes you see on stores. I don't think its fair to target a TV show not even on a main channel (yes even though it's on BBC it's not exactly prime time) and drag events are usually held in nightclubs. I think anything that brings joy to other people, whether it's the shy often bullied in school men that end up doing drag for confidence, or the people in the auidence that get a laugh, it's a good thing.

Although the makeup and padding is done to look like women, after that most of the drag acts don't revolve around female mockery, it's usually singing/dancing/stand up. I know another commenter said it's often straight men, but this is actually very rare. Drag acts were until the past few years only seen in gay bars because of the abuse they got from gay men, even though drag orginates from shakesphere and I wonder if you would be against you kids learning about shakesphere plays in school?

If you look online though, 'bio-queens' and 'drag kings' are everywhere now, which are females who do drag. Do you think this is wrong?
Kids will grow up to experience people who are different, whether you want them too or not. If you think they see someone in a library dressed as a women and immediate sexualise it, I think that's wrong. The same way they don't sexualise cartoon characters even though most of them aren't fully clothed! (I'm looking at you TMNT and Mickey & Friends). They see the bright colours as fun and probably just see it like a clown. I wouldn't take my little boy to a drag show, but if he wants to dress up like Elsa, I wouldn't tell him no.
It's a bit of fun, and I am a sucker for a bit of fun. Kathryn Ryan is my absolute favourite, and her jokes and sexualised and often about gender and you'll see her on tv more commonly than you would a drag queen. Some female comedians jokes go back to women being sex objects or baby makers whereas drag isn't about making jokes at womens expense, but just making jokes dressed as one since it gives them confidence. I don't blame them. When I get a new dress and some red lippy I feel great and I don't know why we're so against sharing that feeling with men. Telling men they can't have a bit of makeup and be more feminine makes me as uncomfortable as people telling little boys that crying is weak does.
I am not going to judge because drag can be like marmite, but I don't know if your issue is that you feel like it's sexist (whereas aside from the appearance - it's usually not about gender) or if it's internalised homophobia, or maybe just not used to female impression being something to be proud of, which it is!
Women used to be refined to housewives, now people want to dress up like us! Yes sometimes they get reduced to being pretty, but if you actually watch that show - you'll see that almost every person on it has overcome great struggles in their life, and has worked incredibly hard to become a better person with a good skill set. Whenever the LGBT community do anything, it's met with hate (I'm not gay but my sister is and I've seen it first hand) and unless you can tell me why men putting on lipstick is anymore exploitative than anything said on 8 out of 10 cats does countdown on TV or people dressing up in costumes for halloween, then I don't think it's about the exploitation but the stopping of gay people having fun.

WowStarsWow · 25/02/2021 16:13

@StaciesSpace your post is very long, but I’d love to rewrite it with “black people” replacing “women” and “blackface” replacing “drag”, and get your opinion on that.

MorganKitten · 25/02/2021 16:14

@StaciesSpace

I love drag and I've been to several drag shows. I don't necessarily think of it as a mockery, it's just comedic impersonation, the same as going to a pantomine! Drag is more appriecative though, and they come out with a better understand of what it is like to be a women (stereotyped to need to be pretty, sexualised by men in clubs, price difference in men/female products, sizing issues in stores), Yes it sometimes can be sexualised, but so is everything you hear on the radio, see on TV and even the clothes you see on stores. I don't think its fair to target a TV show not even on a main channel (yes even though it's on BBC it's not exactly prime time) and drag events are usually held in nightclubs. I think anything that brings joy to other people, whether it's the shy often bullied in school men that end up doing drag for confidence, or the people in the auidence that get a laugh, it's a good thing.

Although the makeup and padding is done to look like women, after that most of the drag acts don't revolve around female mockery, it's usually singing/dancing/stand up. I know another commenter said it's often straight men, but this is actually very rare. Drag acts were until the past few years only seen in gay bars because of the abuse they got from gay men, even though drag orginates from shakesphere and I wonder if you would be against you kids learning about shakesphere plays in school?

If you look online though, 'bio-queens' and 'drag kings' are everywhere now, which are females who do drag. Do you think this is wrong?
Kids will grow up to experience people who are different, whether you want them too or not. If you think they see someone in a library dressed as a women and immediate sexualise it, I think that's wrong. The same way they don't sexualise cartoon characters even though most of them aren't fully clothed! (I'm looking at you TMNT and Mickey & Friends). They see the bright colours as fun and probably just see it like a clown. I wouldn't take my little boy to a drag show, but if he wants to dress up like Elsa, I wouldn't tell him no.
It's a bit of fun, and I am a sucker for a bit of fun. Kathryn Ryan is my absolute favourite, and her jokes and sexualised and often about gender and you'll see her on tv more commonly than you would a drag queen. Some female comedians jokes go back to women being sex objects or baby makers whereas drag isn't about making jokes at womens expense, but just making jokes dressed as one since it gives them confidence. I don't blame them. When I get a new dress and some red lippy I feel great and I don't know why we're so against sharing that feeling with men. Telling men they can't have a bit of makeup and be more feminine makes me as uncomfortable as people telling little boys that crying is weak does.
I am not going to judge because drag can be like marmite, but I don't know if your issue is that you feel like it's sexist (whereas aside from the appearance - it's usually not about gender) or if it's internalised homophobia, or maybe just not used to female impression being something to be proud of, which it is!
Women used to be refined to housewives, now people want to dress up like us! Yes sometimes they get reduced to being pretty, but if you actually watch that show - you'll see that almost every person on it has overcome great struggles in their life, and has worked incredibly hard to become a better person with a good skill set. Whenever the LGBT community do anything, it's met with hate (I'm not gay but my sister is and I've seen it first hand) and unless you can tell me why men putting on lipstick is anymore exploitative than anything said on 8 out of 10 cats does countdown on TV or people dressing up in costumes for halloween, then I don't think it's about the exploitation but the stopping of gay people having fun.

This topic comes up every month on here. I know several drag queens, bio queens, drag kings and bio kings. Interestingly when I say I don’t have a problem with it and ask people on here what they think of bio queens or drag queens that is totally ignored.
BlackeyedSusan · 25/02/2021 16:14

yanbu op. horrible.

MedusasBadHairDay · 25/02/2021 16:15

I think drag can be non-misogynistic and non-reductive, but unfortunately doing drag that way requires more thought and effort, and it's so much easier to just go for sexist caricatures. Easier to raise a laugh with fish jokes and laziness than something more cerebral and nuanced, so unfortunately the crap drag dominates.

MorganKitten · 25/02/2021 16:15

[quote WowStarsWow]@StaciesSpace your post is very long, but I’d love to rewrite it with “black people” replacing “women” and “blackface” replacing “drag”, and get your opinion on that.[/quote]
Two completely different things, and comparing the two takes away how serious racism is.

WowStarsWow · 25/02/2021 16:16

Also, re Shakesphere [sic]. You do realise women weren’t allowed to act then, so they had to be played by men? Apologies if they were in fact strutting around wearing sequins, massive fake boobs, stilettos and referring to themselves as fishy. 🤦🏻‍♀️

sunshinesupermum · 25/02/2021 16:17

I remember seeing the Queen of Drag - Danny La Rue way back when. He was great, very glamorous and entertaining. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_La_Rue

LadyMonicaBaddingham · 25/02/2021 16:20

WowStarsWow Good answer, I'd be very interested to hear that reply too... Apparently internalised homophobia = bad, internalised misogyny = absolutely FINE, go ahead 'lol'

gwenneh · 25/02/2021 16:21

@WowStarsWow

Also, re Shakesphere [sic]. You do realise women weren’t allowed to act then, so they had to be played by men? Apologies if they were in fact strutting around wearing sequins, massive fake boobs, stilettos and referring to themselves as fishy. 🤦🏻‍♀️
There are definitely some problematic views of women in Shakespeare and it wasn't exactly meant to be high culture when it was written. Certainly more than one fish joke extant.

The laws that kept women from acting in the 17th century are still a terrible defence of drag in any context.

Mrstwiddle · 25/02/2021 16:21

I agree. Passing it off as a bit of fun doesn’t make it right.

Copernico · 25/02/2021 16:24

Blackface minstrels were a lot worse than what you describe. It does a disservice to your argument to try to compare drag in any way to the racism of that period. And I’m not even defending drag.

Glamflimfloogety · 25/02/2021 16:24

[quote WowStarsWow]@StaciesSpace your post is very long, but I’d love to rewrite it with “black people” replacing “women” and “blackface” replacing “drag”, and get your opinion on that.[/quote]
Brilliantly put 👏🏻👏🏻 I see no difference between drag and blackface. One is just acceptable marginalisation of a protected class.

It's an awful exaggeration of what some men have deemed to be the characteristics of being a woman - heavy makeup & revealing clothes. I've seen several drag acts and all the 'comedy' seems to center around calling women hags, hysterical or sluts. Even the singing is all off key, and exaggerated to extent that it's a mockery of actual female performers. I've noticed most of the jokes are poor imitations of Les Dawson - who's now been deemed problematic... But put on some lippy and skimpy dress and the same jokes are absolutely fine Hmm

PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 16:25

No issue with men wearing lippy and a dress. Or heels. Heels were invented for men, after all.

Its the men then claiming that the lippy and heels makes them a "woman" that boils my piss.

Be men in dresses, and be fabulous. If you insist on pretending that makes you a woman for the night then youre a mysoginistic little fucker, and we shouldnt be celebrating or giving airtime to these sexist twats.

BelleSausage · 25/02/2021 16:25

Very misogynistic but essentially based on mimicking female pop stars who are being exploited by a highly patriarchal system.

Totally agree that it would be reviled if it were any other group of people performing or being mocked. The only reason why it is so in at the moment is because drag comes under the trans umbrella and women don’t count.

My sister made me watch an episode of Ru Paul last week and all the representations of women were chavy, slutty and dirty sex objects. Not sure any other show would get away with it.