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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

651 replies

Taoneusa · 25/02/2021 15:28

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

OP posts:
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15
PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 17:59

BrumBoo the one thing no one will ever see in a drag act is respect for women! Grin

BrumBoo · 25/02/2021 18:00

@Notimeforaname

I didn't pretend anything wasn't happening. I said I dont think its on the same level.
Do you think oppression comes in levels? How does that work? What's at the top of your levels? Racism, then homophobia, then transphobia, then the disabled - where do women come on your list and how do you measure the oppression to decide who it's ok to take the piss out of and who's not?
AtSwimTwoBerts · 25/02/2021 18:00

Drag Kings exist, this is what they do

Yeah, isn't it just completely weird though they don't have multiple shows on TV and Netflix and are lauded and celebrated all over the place? I mean, so weird, right? God knows why Hmm

ThisIsSimplyBeyond · 25/02/2021 18:04

All I wonder when people insist it isn't offensive, is whether it would be seen as offensive if rather than pretending to be women, they said they were transwomen. Surely that's then transphobic, in which case the original is certainly misogynistic...

StaciesSpace · 25/02/2021 18:05

[quote WowStarsWow]@StaciesSpace I’m going to help you out here (unless you’d rather have a spade to keep digging that hole). The attached images (from 2 different sources) show what falls under transgender nowadays. You’ll see drag is in both. You are wrong.[/quote]
I'll keep my up to date, well informed, rainbow coloured spade!
The fact that the website title is transexual - which is a very outdated (although sometimes people may choose to use) term, shows your issue here. I had a quick look at the website too, it is a Japanese website and the translations they have aren't great, which can be seen by the grammar they use on the site. The second resource is from an little known book. At least made by LGBT people I guess. If you notice the bottom left it says how falling under the transgender umbrella shows how these varied identies challenge gender roles or expressions. It's not great that they have umbrelled it, but notice how it does make reference to them being seperate identities. I'm sure you'll have seen from your Google image search, just as many places put it under the umbrella as those who don't. They are mentioned because they have some overlap sometimes. Many drag queens find out through expressing their drag persona that they are trans. Many drag queens will only use male pronouns in and out of performing. Many trans people hate drag. But many men in drag are comfortable with their cis identity and they are still, although have common concepts, 100% different things.

Please see an more well-known and prominent LGBT source, such as GLAAD. If you want more, let me know. I do recommend Stonewall as they're a great LGBT charity. Or have a read of online resources rather than infographics, as they give better detail rather than trying to squish information into something that looks pretty. Hopefully this helps you with being an ally. Despite this, I don't know how 'men in lippy' caused you to get to this point. Anyway

www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

"Transgender - An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms - including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the person. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to bring their bodies into alignment with their gender identity. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon physical appearance or medical procedures."

"!. Transgender women are not cross-dressers or drag queens. Drag queens are men, typically gay men, who dress like women for the purpose of entertainment. Be aware of the differences between transgender women, cross-dressers, and drag queens."

The most important thing about trans idenities is that they are selected and chosen by trans people. So bascially our opinion doesn't even matter.

Notimeforaname · 25/02/2021 18:07

Not the same, no two oppressed groups have the same story. Just as bad though, some things that women went and go through simply are not comparable to other groups
Ah but for me it's not 'just as bad' .
So that'll be why I'm fine with it. Its grand to have differing opinions.

Because I love drag and work in the area doesn't mean I suddenly support the oppression and abuse of black people and women.

As much as many of you are frustrated and wished I thought like you ,I simply just don't.

I have white and black friends,male and female who perform in and out of drag and all support each other,they are all lovely, kind, hard working people who who do not have an ounce of hatred in them.
But I know not many people get to see it from this angle...but even if they did,its fine not to like or support somthing.

cinammonbuns · 25/02/2021 18:07

It always makes me laugh when people compare about black people being mocked and women being mocked. As if they are always two separate things. Do you realise that there are some people who fall in both categories? Like me.

Personally, I find drag no where near as offensive as blackface but that’s because where I live being black is the minority while being a woman is half and half (as it is in most countries).

Im sure that for people in countries whereby they are not the minority race it may be different.

AtSwimTwoBerts · 25/02/2021 18:08

So that'll be why I'm fine with it. Its grand to have differing opinions

Is it though? Because, as women these days, there seem to be a lot of opinions that we aren't allowed to have.

StaciesSpace · 25/02/2021 18:08

@AtSwimTwoBerts

Drag Kings exist, this is what they do

Yeah, isn't it just completely weird though they don't have multiple shows on TV and Netflix and are lauded and celebrated all over the place? I mean, so weird, right? God knows why Hmm

If you look at Rupauls history, you'll see the time it took for drag to have a platform, it just happened to be that the founder of mainstream drag did female impersonation. Before this it was mainly shows like Little Britian or movies like White Chicks that we saw but didn't really class as drag back then. Drag kings are a lot more popular now though. Back in the day I can only really think of Katherine Tate bringing it to TV, but now it's quite common on SNL in the states with Kate Mckinnon having a lotta fun with it
AtSwimTwoBerts · 25/02/2021 18:09

it just happened to be that the founder of mainstream drag did female impersonation

No, it didnt "just happen", at all.

Whammyyammy · 25/02/2021 18:09

Totally agree, drag could be offensive to some, should be banned.

StaciesSpace · 25/02/2021 18:10

@PheasantPlucker1

BrumBoo the one thing no one will ever see in a drag act is respect for women! Grin
A big part of drag is actually learning your 'herstory'. Herstory is history written from a feminist perspective and emphasizing the role of women, or told from a woman's point of view. :)
Notimeforaname · 25/02/2021 18:10

Many people can recognise misogyny, they just choose to ignore it for their own reasons. I can still point it out though and hope something sticks amongst the desperation to think that the men involved in drag have a single ounce of respect for women as a group in society.

To me, drag isn't misogyny. You can keep pointing it out but it wont stick with those who disagree with you.
I respect your opinion though. Smile

PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 18:11

NoTime your friends know what they is really, really fucking offensive to (at least) hundreds of women.

Yet they carry on eidiculing people, being offensive, because it makes them money and they think they are funny.

You describe them as lovely and kind hearted? No, your friends are not that.

Stoppissingonmyheather · 25/02/2021 18:12

Interesting I have never thought of it like that but you are right I suppose but then again in these days of having no gender identities or whatever surely people can choose to be whatever they want to be and if they want to be highly sexualised glamorous women who's to say they can't? I doubt very much that many drag queens want to make fun of women and put them down more like celebrate them whilst making people laugh and many of them will be full time women however I totally see your point.

Notimeforaname · 25/02/2021 18:14

Do you think oppression comes in levels? How does that work? What's at the top of your levels? Racism, then homophobia, then transphobia, then the disabled - where do women come on your list and how do you measure the oppression to decide who it's ok to take the piss out of and who's not?
Excuse me 'level ' was really not the right word to use!.
I just dont compare racism to drag,Blackface to drag... when drag includes people of all colours and gender.
I dont see it as offensive at all.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe · 25/02/2021 18:14

@PheasantPlucker1

No issue with men wearing lippy and a dress. Or heels. Heels were invented for men, after all.

Its the men then claiming that the lippy and heels makes them a "woman" that boils my piss.

Be men in dresses, and be fabulous. If you insist on pretending that makes you a woman for the night then youre a mysoginistic little fucker, and we shouldnt be celebrating or giving airtime to these sexist twats.

I absolutely agree with this. I'd also add that the few 'drag' acts I've seen have been jokingly-aggressive towards women. Very uncomfortable to watch and I have no time for it or its defenders.

Wear whatever clothes you want but if you're xy chromosome then you're not a woman nor ever will be.

FrostyChocolateMilkshake · 25/02/2021 18:15

@PheasantPlucker1 didn't mean my reply to come across as frosty or snappy, apologies (text can be misconstrued so easily!). I'm all for having a good old discussion about topics like this, so I appreciate your response. Thanks for not biting my head off for having a different opinion to you.

As much as I myself do not find offence with drag, I appreciate why, after reading the points in your post, some women would. I guess I just don't see the mockery- whenever I've been to drag shows or watched Drag Race, I've never thought they were being cruel about women. They were celebrating us.

However, that is my opinion and I welcome any differing views Smile

PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 18:16

Stacie who is providing the womens point of view?

Would that be a man who thinks he is now a woman as he put false eyelashes on?

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 25/02/2021 18:16

All I wonder when people insist it isn't offensive, is whether it would be seen as offensive if rather than pretending to be women, they said they were transwomen. Surely that's then transphobic, in which case the original is certainly misogynistic...

I think the crux of this is the 'pretending to be women' part. If that follows for all drag acts, then yes, you have a point. I do not and never have viewed drag as 'pretending to be women', hence why I don't find it offensive. I've asked both my drag performer friends about this very thing, and neither has ever said anything along the lines of it being about 'pretending to be a woman'. They view their 'drag' persona as an inherent part of their own personality. One is also a transvestite, and so wears dresses and heels totally aside from the drag, the other's actual drag is a bit odd in that it's not even particularly woman-like, instead being based more on androgynous, robot, and cyborg/alien concepts. When they say it's not about pretending to be a woman, that's why I find it hard to disagree with them.

FrostyChocolateMilkshake · 25/02/2021 18:17

FWIW as much as I bloody love drag I do think the name "Anna Bortion" is vile and not funny in the slightest.

Notimeforaname · 25/02/2021 18:18

your friends know what they is really, really fucking offensive to (at least) hundreds of women

Yet they carry on eidiculing people, being offensive, because it makes them money and they think they are funny

You describe them as lovely and kind hearted? No, your friends are not that

From what I could gather from that...you're giving me an opinion on my friends you've never met.Grin I will let them know I'm sure they'll be only devastated a stranger from the internet has their number and knows their true selves. Calm down Smile

PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 18:19

Xdownwiththissortofthing if they are not pretending to be women, why call each other she and queens?

Thats just gaslighting.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 25/02/2021 18:20

@PheasantPlucker1

Gay men who have never done drag in their lives commonly refer to each other as 'She' and 'queen'.

scentedgeranium · 25/02/2021 18:21

Yes! Yes! Yes! Completely agree it's just about ridiculous characatures. I think historically it was more acceptable since you had women visibly taking on male personas - think Berlin in the twenties. Perhaps I'd feel better about it if we had male impersonators plying their trade in mainstream media. I dunno