AIBU to think these lgbt history resources should not be in school

[2fallsagain]

Resources produced by The Proud Trust and Stonewall for LGBT history month do the following, according to ssauk:

•	Teach children that they can be born into the wrong body or have a boy ‘inside’ and girl body outside (or vice versa).
•	Teach children that their parents and other trusted adults can be wrong about something as fundamental as the sex of a child – whether they are a boy or a girl.
•	Teach a belief held by a minority of people as if it were a fact.
•	Teach an incorrect and harmful definition of sexual orientation, which is likely to harm lesbian and gay (or those who would grow up to be) children the most.
•	Groom children into campaigning for things which are contrary to their rights under the Equality Act 2010 and to their safety. This will especially impact girls.
•	Misrepresent the struggle that LGB people have experienced to gain equal marriage.

Surely schools should only use materials which are compliant with the latest DfE RSE guidance and safeguarding protocols. These resources are terrible.

More info and links to resoursss here: https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/2021/02/23/lgbt-history-month-school-packs

@SimonJT this has been covered numerous times. It's really easy to teach children about different relationships and families. They don't understand it as sexuality and they don't need to. As long as they know that Johnny has two mummies and that's all fine, or susie just lives with her dad, or Peter lives with his grandparents, etc, etc and all
of those family set ups are fine and valid. That's all they need to know.

@slashlover

There is avast difference between teaching kids to accept people and peddling the untruth that some people are born in the wrong body. Nobody is born in the wrong body.

So kids, trans people exist and are to be accepted and respected. HOWEVER, they are also wrong and liars because nobody is born in the wrong body.

Care to comment on the erasure of Ase people?

You have this wrong. Try this:

OK children. There are some people who say they were born in the wrong body. We know that is a silly thing to say it doesn't really make any sense, does it, if you think about it? but still (and this is very important, children!) thinking or saying something silly doesn't make you bad , does it? So we should be nice to these people as nice as we should be to anybody who does no harm to other people or the world around them .

As for 'erasure of Ase people', I will try. Two things:

1. Asexuality is about sexual desire or its absence. This has nothing to do with 'born in the wrong body' nonsense. Assimilating the two makes the same mistake as the all-too-common assimilation of 'trans' struggle to struggles for gay rights. You, as an avowed asexual person, have a case for understanding that your trans friends lack in that your self-description makes sense whereas theirs tends not to.

1. It is understandable that you regret your late adolescence. Your description of the hardships you suffered touched me, and I suppose others too. You should not have suffered from the misconception people have that being unusual made you somehow abnormal in a bad sense. You, and your peers, should have been taught universal acceptance of others, and to the extent that the lack of such teaching constituted an erasure of you in your own regard, that erasure was wholly deplorable.

There may be more to say in comment. But will that do for now?

Why does any 5 year old need to be taught anything about any sexuality? It is wholly inappropriate for their age. As a PP said, they perceive relationships but that’s about it.

Is any of this being taught to 5 year olds though? The website doesn't mention an age but Stonewall Scotland resources for P1-P3 (5-8 year olds) is pretty much "everyone's family is different", reading a poem and adding foods into it.

SimonJT you seem to be confusing sexuality with relationship status. I can’t be bothered trying to explain all this to you TBH, but online searchable databases are available. While you’re at it, check national curriculum for Early Years and KS1.

@9toenails yeh poster was not conflating trans with ace people she was pointing out the horrendous guidance in the link of the OP about asexuality.

Teaching children to respect everyone is not the same as using these resources. Of course we want children to treat anyone they meet with respect- but that does not mean they need to know about their lifestyle and choices.

@superduster

I don't think anyone else has actually looked at the resources rather than the comments on them? I looked at the first pack and its fine for upper secondary. Its totally appropriate and of course there will be lots of discussion but the point is for the materials to be the basis/starting points of that discussion.

Yes. The materials conflate sex and gender, and talk about the concept of being assigned a gender. This is all taught as fact. And there is no space for discussion snd we know stonewall do not tolerates by dissent or discussion.

This bit is particularly concerning.

The children are not encouraged to explore any perfectly legitimate concerns they have about sharing changing spaces or sports with a child they know is the opposite sex. It is then suggested that further information can be accessed about how to include LGBT people in sport – this resource contains the statement that young trans people should be supported to use the changing facilities and toilets of the gender in which they present.
The children are then directed to ‘Take Action’, possibly as a mass stance, and a template letter is provided so that they can write to their headteachers or head of PE or local sports groups to explain that toilets, changing rooms and sports split by sex are a barrier to LGBT people and should be changed to mixed ‘gender’ or in other words mixed sex. By doing this the children will be able to feel good as though they are an ally in the fight for equality.

@twelly ‘lifestyle and choices’ .... that is painfully familiar.

@twelly

Teaching children to respect everyone is not the same as using these resources. Of course we want children to treat anyone they meet with respect- but that does not mean they need to know about their lifestyle and choices.

Lifestyle and choices?

this has been covered numerous times. It's really easy to teach children about different relationships and families. They don't understand it as sexuality and they don't need to

What about a heterosexual couple kissing and holding hands though?
That's not "hiding your sexuality" or kids not knowing or caring about relationships.
I'm not gay, I'm straight btw but that's how I see it
Or like asking say a 5 year old if the have a girlfriend or a boyfriend yet and awwing if Johnny has a girlfriend and "proposes" to her in the playground?
Not the same for gay couples, is it, can they do that as easily?

Can't you just keep this on the Feminism Thread?

Of course we want children to treat anyone they meet with respect- but that does not mean they need to know about their lifestyle and choices

Ooof
Yikes
sorry, starting to come across as a bit Scooby Doo sounding now, gast is flabbered lol

OK children. There are some people who say they were born in the wrong body. We know that is a silly thing to say it doesn't really make any sense, does it, if you think about it? but still (and this is very important, children!) thinking or saying something silly doesn't make you bad , does it? So we should be nice to these people as nice as we should be to anybody who does no harm to other people or the world around them .

So you're going to teach children that someone they know is silly, doesn't make sense and isn't to be believed while also making any trans kids believe they are wrong?

2. It is understandable that you regret your late adolescence. Your description of the hardships you suffered touched me, and I suppose others too. You should not have suffered from the misconception people have that being unusual made you somehow abnormal in a bad sense. You, and your peers, should have been taught universal acceptance of others, and to the extent that the lack of such teaching constituted an erasure of you in your own regard, that erasure was wholly deplorable.

It wasn't about the teaching of acceptance or being unusual. It was not being taught that anything other than heterosexuality actually existed. TBH, I couldn't have cared less if other people accepted me, I couldn't accept myself. One mention that "hey is you never have sex then that's normal and if you also are never attracted to anyone then that's normal too" would have been fine.

@slashlover exactly. It’s not that the teacher didn’t tell people to accept me. It’s that the teacher did not tell me people like me existed at all.
I genuinely believed I was some defective human being until I looked it up on the internet.

The idea that telling children that some people are not sexually attracted to people (in secondary school) is something that should not be taught or that it is harmful to children is ridiculous. I would love to have know that there are communities of people who also are the same way.

@slashlover Asexual isn't something I had really looked into it or come across with anyone I know. Thank you for making me aware when it comes to raising my son .

Even if people say it is a belief and not fact etc. Why should it be taught in the completely disregarding way you have presented it @9toenails

When I learned about other religions in my Christian school, nobody told me that Hindus were silly for believing in their gods or that Muslims were silly for believing in their God.

If they did I think they would have got in trouble and rightly so, it is not respecting or accepting people to imply what they belief is not only untrue but that they are dumb for believing it.

[quote cinammonbuns]@9toenails yeh poster was not conflating trans with ace people she was pointing out the horrendous guidance in the link of the OP about asexuality.[/quote]
OK. So you think this
So kids, trans people exist and are to be accepted and respected. HOWEVER, they are also wrong and liars because nobody is born in the wrong body
was not intended sarcastically? Hmm.

Seems a tad hard on trans people, though but. 'Liars' is a bit strong, no?

The quicker we separate gay from trans the better. Sexuality has nothing to do with trans issues, although our numbers seem to be diminishing due to young gay and lesbian people transitioning. I personally find the the rapid increase in transition unsettling. I have a younger 20 year old sister and nearly all of her very large friendship circle are trans or NB. 5 years ago they were all ‘bisexual’ painting flags on their faces and going to youth pride, a couple of years before that, they all claimed depression and talk of cutting was common, that was a worrying trend but it passed.. now they're all trans. Except this time it won’t be reversible, the are currently raising money for top surgery for one of the girls 18th. A girl I’ve known since she was 12, liked girls. Now she’s a straight man apparently.

Trans people exist. They have dysphoria. They weren't born in the wrong body.

@Jumpers268

I’m happy @slashlover helped you learn more and I’m happy to them for also pointing out the terrible
statement about asexuality in their first post.

Also just want to let you know that one thing that terrified me when I was young was the belief I was going to die alone and never be in a relationship due to being sexual. This is obviously not the case as there are other asexuals who I could obviously be in a relationship with too. So if you could tell your son that too to maybe reassure him if he ever told you he felt that way, I think it would be helpful .

[quote Jumpers268]@slashlover Asexual isn't something I had really looked into it or come across with anyone I know. Thank you for making me aware when it comes to raising my son .[/quote]
Ironically this is aromantic awareness week. Asexuality is a spectrum and covers a range of orientations. Honestly is all you teach him is that not everyone is attracted to someone and not everyone wants to have sex that that's all we need.

Can't you just keep this on the Feminism Thread

No.

Again, is this actually being taught to 5 year olds or is it hyperbolic scaremongering? The Stonewall lesson plans for primary children only mention the word "trans" twice, both times in teacher notes to say that when a child describes their family, they might mention a parent being trans.

@Sofetikal

The quicker we separate gay from trans the better. Sexuality has nothing to do with trans issues, although our numbers seem to be diminishing due to young gay and lesbian people transitioning. I personally find the the rapid increase in transition unsettling. I have a younger 20 year old sister and nearly all of her very large friendship circle are trans or NB. 5 years ago they were all ‘bisexual’ painting flags on their faces and going to youth pride, a couple of years before that, they all claimed depression and talk of cutting was common, that was a worrying trend but it passed.. now they're all trans. Except this time it won’t be reversible, the are currently raising money for top surgery for one of the girls 18th. A girl I’ve known since she was 12, liked girls. Now she’s a straight man apparently.

And this is it. This isn't reversible. This isn't the same as respecting all beliefs. The belief that someone can be born in the wrong body can do actual harm to children and young people.

[quote cinammonbuns]@Jumpers268

I’m happy @slashlover helped you learn more and I’m happy to them for also pointing out the terrible
statement about asexuality in their first post.

Also just want to let you know that one thing that terrified me when I was young was the belief I was going to die alone and never be in a relationship due to being sexual. This is obviously not the case as there are other asexuals who I could obviously be in a relationship with too. So if you could tell your son that too to maybe reassure him if he ever told you he felt that way, I think it would be helpful .[/quote]
Although I'm aromantic so I am going to die alone.

Apart from my friends/nieces and nephews/cousins/friends' kids (who all weirdly seem to love me)/friends' grandkids/etc.