Partner losing £££ in stocks

[iwanttotravel]

Good evening Mumsnet!

Hope someone can tell me if I am being unreasonable or not as I am unsure if I am over reacting. But I am feeling really hurt and embarrassed.

My DP of more then 10 years took an interest in cryptocurrency over the weekend. I don't know anything about it and find the whole thing confusing tbh. And although he hasn't traded in stocks before he does have investment qualifications. He told me he put ££ in some particular stock as a bit of fun, I smiled and nodded, his money his life, his fun and all that...

Yesterday I saw one of his tweets talking to someone about a different stock (not the one he had mentioned to me) and that he had bought and bought and bought again as it was low and a 'steal' apparently.

I asked him about it and he told me he had bought a bit more, (still only within ££) but I found out he had went over his monthly allowance on his credit card so would need to borrow money from savings to cover him to avoid interest charges.

This upset me as he effectively gambled our savings without asking me. He said he would cover the cost the following month and made me feel like it was his business not mine. We went to bed. I forgot about it.

Today. He messages me 'may have messed up a little bit'. That while he was purchasing, some of the payments were not processing and were in fact duplicating entries!!!! He had actually spent 10X the amount of what he originally said £££. This would all need to come from our savings and he will pay back in installments.

I told him I knew he was lying. He denied. Everything he was saying didn't add up. But he looked me dead in the eye and told me this was a bank error. He swore on our kids lives. And then long story short, he did lie and admitted to all the purchases. He lied.

I'm so sorry this went on for so long. I'm just in tears. He said he felt embarrassed about telling me. These stocks are tanking and he's losing money and I somehow feel sorry for him but he looked me dead in the eye and lied through his teeth.

I've been thinking about handing my engagement ring back. I just don't like the lying. He very well could have wiped our savings out in a weekend. He says he's going to pay it back but I want some advice on what to do. I get it's his life but if this gets worse it puts me and our kids at risk. I believe it to be incredibly reckless and could use some help as to if I'm being unfair or not.

Also any advice on people who have dealt with gamblers in the past would be appreciated. Thank you so much.

Jesus - why does everyone now think they can be a trader?! Its NOT easy money, you really have to know your stuff, there isn't 'jump on the bandwagon' to win big. It doesn't work like that. My husband actually teaches traders for a living, in an investment bank, even they get it wrong. OP - my friend called me a few years ago and told me she was going to invest her money in bitcoin, i said dont, not until she spoke to my husband, she didnt listen, lied to her husband too. A few months later, her husband told me they lost about 70k, and had to re-mortgage their house, he had only just found out. She too lied. Be very careful OP - this a rabbit hole you dont want to fall down in, esp with children.

@Bouledeneige
Sometimes people think stocks and shares are different to betting on the horses - that they are business decisions. But they are not, its still gambling

That’s not really true. I thought of an metaphor the other day. Gambling is betting that Man Utd will win there next game. Investing (sensibly and with knowledge) is betting that Man Utd will still be a big club in twenty years time. And if they are still a big club in 20 years time, you are extremely likely to have earned, say 10% a year on your investment. Which could easily mean tripling or quadrupling your money.
Is Amazon still going to be around and successful in 20 years years time? Is Google going to disappear overnight? Or will they still be big players? What do their financial figures from the last 20 years suggest?

@iwanttotravel

It wasn't Bitcoin. One was DOGE. then he did two others but I don't know their names. AO something I think and ADA it might have been.

All cryptos tanked today pretty much across the board. Don't let him sell them now, just wait and the price will come up again. He should be ok with ADA.

Doge is a shitcoin and was made as a joke. It will remain a joke. That was really stupid to buy. Buying this means he knows nothing whatever about crypto and should get out when he can break even on whatever he spent.

@lioncitygirl
There’s a huge difference between being a daytrader and being someone who, say, sticks a few hundred each month in an ETF - which is basically no different to a pension fund except you get to access your money whenever you want rather than having to wait 20/30/40 years.

Be careful OP, my Brother In Law "invested" their wedding fund and lost the lot. Promised it would never happen again, then 8 years down the line, ran up so many gambling debts they lost their house.
For me, any hint of a gambling habit and I'd be off.

Your situation has similarities to my living hell last year. Partner studies investments and qualified in this area, got caught up in forex and crypto currency. Lost his head during covid and lost a relatively small amount of money initially (all hidden from me), then over the course of a few months spiralled out of control as he became obsessed with making the money back to conceal original loss. Became huge losses, including money taken out in loans and some in my name (without me knowing) and admitted that it got to the point where he considered suicide if he didn’t make the money back to cover the debts. They can say it’s not gambling but it can easily become the same mentality and there are many factors that can trigger this, such as mental health, pressure to earn for the family or even social media / external sources which often glorify wealth and advertise trading. My advice would be to not be too punishing to him and try to encourage open dialogue so he feels able to confess if there is more. Remove your name from any joint bank accounts to remove the risk and his access to potential borrowing (which can be done with frightening ease online). It sounds like your situation at the moment is manageable and that you could benefit from talking to him about what led him to this behaviour in the first place. Good luck.

Even professional traders, doing it with other peoples money or their own reinvested profits, only make money just over half the time. And a basic golden rule of the kind of speculating he has done (like any gambling, and yes they are in essence just the same thing) is not to risk anything you can't afford to lose. Borrowing money to speculate with is called leverage, and Buffet's famous quote goes that if you're smart you don't need leverage and if you're stupid it will ruin you. It's absolutely true.

I do know a few people who've made some money through crypto, but they've done it the slow way, starting with a small amount of money that they can easily afford to lose, and if they get lucky and turn a profit then reinvesting only that, and keeping going that way. They've also taken various anti-hacking measures. (Most smart people I know who could afford to speculate in this area refuse to because it's such a Wild West.)

It sounds like this man knows a tiny bit about investing through work and it has inflated his sense of his own competence. The lesson he must learn from this - whether or not he makes or loses money in the short term - is that borrowing money to speculate with was a highly incompetent thing for him to do, and it must never, ever happen again.

OP if I were you I'd probably end it over stupidity like this. But if you stay with him, at the least delay your wedding if you've set a date, and tell him never to gamble or "invest" again. That if he does, it's over. And mean it.

Cam77 I agree and disagree. I have in my job been responsible for portfolios of £160m and £100m working with professional asset managers to deliver returns for my organisations. You are right that as investments, shares have increased in value over time and stocks in companies do have inherent value. However if you seriously invest you need to do it for the long term in 'safe' blue chip stocks or have a balanced portfolio managed professionally where you balance out the risk and are cautious about buying and selling decisions. Ultimately most investments are held because you are gambling that they will increase in value. But obviously they can go up and down.

Amateur investors can however miss this point if they are hoping to make quick returns and 'play' the market. And they can make increasingly bad decisions by short term buying and selling. The ultimate gamble that what they are buying is trading low and will increase in value and that they can capitalise on the increase in value by selling at peak. However, if stocks start to fall they can make increasingly worse bets to try to recover their losses. Most amateur investors don't have the skills to make these short term decisions consistently and well.

My Dad has some shares he inherited that were then ICI shares - they are now Astra Zeneca after successive mergers. He has never traded just held them. Its been a safe bet over the years and a steady return in dividends. He had a few other stocks all safe as houses. RBS not so much - they tanked big time. Because some will.

But online trading has really added to the risks. It exacerbates the danger of risky trades as you can see and respond to movement in real time and make bad short term decisions. It's dangerous for the amateur. And as I said I've known two people who ruined their lives betting on the stock market for precisely this reason. One lost £900K the other over £300K.

Apologies for the long response!

We had a conversation and he told me the reason he lied was because he felt embarrassed. He said he wouldn't do it again. That he wouldn't bet again. That he wouldn't lie again. But I can't get over it.

I know some people think it's harmless and others think it's unforgivable. I don't know where I fall.

I've sent him to the sofa. Told him I need space to think and going to sleep on it I think.

I don't believe his debts go past what I know, although I guess he wouldn't admit it if they did! Such is the problem with liars...

I don't want him to feel alone, but I don't want this to ever happen again.

I'd move an amount equal to 1/2 the account balance PRIOR to his playing 'money games' (even if that's the total account balance) into my own name. That is your fair share. If he 'wins big' with his gamble then fair dos to him, but I wouldn't allow any of my money to be under the control of someone so financially foolish, gambler or no.

I wouldn't marry someone who could be so dishonest about 'our' money. To me that means he actually considers it 'his' money. No one who truly believed it was joint funds would EVER decide to invest a large sum without consulting their partner/spouse.

Dealbreaker, big time.

I don't want him to feel alone,

He obviously doesn't feel the same way or he wouldn't have deceived you. I bet you feel pretty 'alone' right now, I know I would.

Put yourself first. He's not.

Crypto currency is run by crooks. This is common knowledge.

Walk away and do not look back. Deepening a relationship with a man who gambles and then lies to you about it is a mistake. Marrying a man who gambles and lies is reckless, as you’re tying your finances to his. Think really deeply about the way he looked you in the eye and lied to you and then Google problem gambling.

We have our own bank accounts and own credit cards.

He has a spend limit of 10k on his.

I have an e saver we save into where we save in. It's in my name and not joint, he can't actually take money from it unless he logs into my bank, which he could, but hasn't. It's all on his credit cards.

He gets his money each month and I get mine when are wages come in it is all down the middle.

We also have a separate LISA's which we both have 6k in each which we are saving for a house.

He could access this and incur a heavy penalty.

I think if I gave him half the savings we have he would spend it. Where as right now we are supposed to be saving towards a wedding/house.

I hate I don't feel I can trust him

Seriously, take your share of the savings now. Even if it leaves him short. How is HE going to solve this problem? How are YOU going to protect yourself. If you want to stay together this is probation. Ignore the advice of PP at your peril.

@ConsuelaHammock There’s no thrill involved in matched betting, it’s not gambling, it’s a confirmed outcome so it’s not really the same.

The stock could go up tomorrow and double his money - that wouldn't change the fact he looked you in the eye, swore on your children's lives and lied.

If you cant trust him and he is reckless then you cant live like that. As I said I have been considering Crypto and the first thing I did was sit down and talk to my partner about it. We have spoken numerous hours over the weekend and again tonight. We have agreed an initial budget, how we think is best trade (day, swing, long term) , how best to diversify, how long we expect to run this experiment, how we think is safest to keep our shares (multiple exchanges / cold storage etc.), our objectives (when we would sell), where the initial money would come from, our monthly ongoing additional investment over the next 4 years and where that money is coming from.

Its a lot to talk to a partner about and if its your money its very much a joint decision and you should both be well informed and agree how to move forward.

You need to sit down with him and have a big discussion.
What has he done - exactly every trade!
What your current situation is.
Whether he made a profit on any buy & sell (possible tax implications as still unsure whether you can offset losses in personal trading)
What you plan to do now

Thank you again for all of your replies.

I have read them all and appreciate all who took the time the respond.

He is definitely the risk taker and I am likely the kite string. I truly do love him, and in a weird way, I think he wants this big pay off for me and the kids. I think he imagined showing me £££££ and him be a hero and everyone claps. But that isn't real life.

I hate to be a downer and see him so down over something he was likely excited about. But he needs to grow up I think. DOGE won't buy us a house. And I 100% agree with everyone who said he didn't research enough and was impulsive.

I love him but damn he can be dense

OP I think it’s understandable that you’re in shock and don’t know what to do to move forward.

Take some time to think. As I said earlier, I had the overwhelming urge to invest more money today when I saw a good result. I have it in me to become addicted to things really easily, so before I invested I made a plan, wrote it down and gave myself clear parameters to save me from me.

It sounds like he is similar but when the little voice in his head says go on do it, the other little voice doesn’t say stop being a dick and don’t do it, or he ignores it.

If it were me, I would have to insist on him attending GA. I say this as someone who could easily do what he has done.

@LolaButt

OP I think it’s understandable that you’re in shock and don’t know what to do to move forward.

Take some time to think. As I said earlier, I had the overwhelming urge to invest more money today when I saw a good result. I have it in me to become addicted to things really easily, so before I invested I made a plan, wrote it down and gave myself clear parameters to save me from me.

It sounds like he is similar but when the little voice in his head says go on do it, the other little voice doesn’t say stop being a dick and don’t do it, or he ignores it.

If it were me, I would have to insist on him attending GA. I say this as someone who could easily do what he has done.

Thank you, I think this will be the route I take.

I don't think he thinks he has a problem but whenever situations arise like these he always acts poorly. I will tell him that this will help me feel more comfortable and go from there.

Thanks again

He needs a cuddle? What about you?! Don't you need a cuddle? The man you love and why you thought was on the same page as you has potentially pissed away thousands of pounds and now he wants you to help pay for his mistake which he LIED about! On your kids lives!

Thank God you aren't married. If you marry him his debts become yours. Make sure every single penny of your money is somewhere he cannot touch it, change pin numbers and pass words and do NOT bail him out. He can fix this himself. You're not his mum. You can love him and stay with him while not taking responsibility for his stupidity.

@iwanttotravel

Apologies for the long response!

We had a conversation and he told me the reason he lied was because he felt embarrassed. He said he wouldn't do it again. That he wouldn't bet again. That he wouldn't lie again. But I can't get over it.

I know some people think it's harmless and others think it's unforgivable. I don't know where I fall.

I've sent him to the sofa. Told him I need space to think and going to sleep on it I think.

I don't believe his debts go past what I know, although I guess he wouldn't admit it if they did! Such is the problem with liars...

I don't want him to feel alone, but I don't want this to ever happen again.

You could both do a credit check. You were talking about sorting your finances anyway so that's a good start for you both.

I'd get out. He gambled uncontrollably and lied about it. I've seen what happens to couples where one of them does this, it'll ruin your life. Yeah it might have only happened once so far but why wait to let it happen again.

DOGE is a joke, I bought about 1000 for a laugh, I'll hold the line on it, in the hopes the joke takes off and it climbs, worst case, I've lost £30 for a few lol's, I would never spunk considerable savings into a memecoin though, that's madness.