Non-binary pronouns change for my daughter

[Dollyplum]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and after searching, couldn't find any past threads for this.

My daughter now identifies as non-binary and has changed her name to reflect her new identity. She is now asking us to use they/them pronouns and tbh, we're really struggling with this. We don't have any issues with her wanting to be the person she wants to be, but I can't quite explain why we find the pronouns so hard to come to terms with. I guess from an old fashioned perspective, they/them is plural, and we have known her for nearly 14 years as a girl.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to handle this please? Are we just being stubborn? Should be change the pronouns? The name change was welcomed with open arms by our whole family and she is definitely happier that everyone has settled into this without issue. We have changed her name at school, dentist, etc. to her preferred name.

I'm sure other parents here have been through the same thing and any advice would be welcome please. Thank you so much :-) x

@WaltzingBetty

Couldn't we argue that more women want to transition to men cause they just "have it easier", don't they?

Umm.. if you accept that men have it easier then you are by default accepting that women have it worse....
It's the opposite side of the same argument

I don't think that men have it easier.

But that's what people who are determined to find misogyny in everything think.

So maybe, more women transition because we convince them that men have it easier which isn't true

Turn on any mainstream telly soap and I guarantee in the last month a women has physically assaulted a man.

Right so now we're using tv soap storylines as 'evidence' for how tough men have it...

However, you've lost me here saying that me point out male mental health statistics in relation to someone asking why more women access gender services, and me saying men can't always access help, is whataboutery? It's misognystic for me to point out that men statistically find that harder? EH?

Because they aren't male mental health statistics or statistics relating to males trying to access gender services. You're talking about overall male suicide rates. The biggest risk group for male suicides are middle aged men. Not NB teens. If you can explain how suicide in middle aged men related to the decisions of teens (70% of which are girls) to seek gender identity services then maybe I'll understand the relevance. I have to admit at the moment I am struggling.

The endless pushing of misogyny whenever anyone points out that life is not perfect for males is what the feminism argument far more harm than good.

So what is your alternative hypothesis? You've made it clear that you don't think misogyny in society influences teens discomfort with their gender identity. So what do you think does?

Btw Betty and others I'm well aware that my spellings of misogynistic are getting worse by the second, I've written it so many times wrongly at speed that autocorrect now likes this new version!

I'd rather my teen was talking to me about pronouns that some clown off the internet, or well meaning friends.

No one has suggested that they wouldn't talk to their teens about pronouns.

@RootyT00t

Btw Betty and others I'm well aware that my spellings of misogynistic are getting worse by the second, I've written it so many times wrongly at speed that autocorrect now likes this new version!

No one cares about your spelling

You see Non Binary as imposing themselves on women. And for as long as you, and the people who follow that argument, think that, they will never ever accept NB for anything more than a threat to women (hence the calls of misogyny). Now whether or not you agree with gender as a concept, you must see that seeing something that doesn't directly affect you as I see it, or seeing it as a direct threat as you do, makes things somewhat different.

Of course NB imposes on women, because even though YOU dont agree it's still part of the trans identity. That means those born male can still claim women's places and access safe spaces. It's essentially the loophole of self ID. It also still recognises gender as reality, and something interchangeable. Again, a harmful ideology full of stereotypes.

You can ask me the gender question as many times as you like. I don't know. Because I'm not in that situation.

You are though. You accept gender is real. You are female, you therefore have an opinion on what it means to be female. So if it's not down to our sez, and stereotypes are just that, you must inherently know you are female by some other means to recognise others 'feel' the same way. Or sometimes feel the same way, if they're NB of course.

@WaltzingBetty

Turn on any mainstream telly soap and I guarantee in the last month a women has physically assaulted a man.

Right so now we're using tv soap storylines as 'evidence' for how tough men have it...

However, you've lost me here saying that me point out male mental health statistics in relation to someone asking why more women access gender services, and me saying men can't always access help, is whataboutery? It's misognystic for me to point out that men statistically find that harder? EH?

Because they aren't male mental health statistics or statistics relating to males trying to access gender services. You're talking about overall male suicide rates. The biggest risk group for male suicides are middle aged men. Not NB teens. If you can explain how suicide in middle aged men related to the decisions of teens (70% of which are girls) to seek gender identity services then maybe I'll understand the relevance. I have to admit at the moment I am struggling.

The endless pushing of misogyny whenever anyone points out that life is not perfect for males is what the feminism argument far more harm than good.

So what is your alternative hypothesis? You've made it clear that you don't think misogyny in society influences teens discomfort with their gender identity. So what do you think does?

No I'm not using soaps as evidence (and this is a completely different topic). But I do think many issues that affect men are played down, yeah.

I'm not relating it to teens, Betty. I'm relating it directly to evidence that men, as a whole , find it harder to access services. It was a minor point that you've dissected and connected where this isn't a connection.

No, I haven't made that clear at all, not that there's no influence at all (and it's more than discomfort). But I don't believe that the world's hate and discrimination against women is forcing teenagers to decide to be a man, no. I think that's an utterly preposterous idea, with an agenda behind it, and I've said that a few times. and I think it's pretty manipulative to claim that misogyny is driving these teen's decisions to transition into men, then deny them as women or as NB, and leave them in the very world that we claim is violent and ruthless towards us.

I think it's a variety of factors. Not feeling comfortable in their own bodies, the sex of their role models, the sex of their trusted and loved ones around them, the type of uprbringing they have, the friends they have, the social media influencers they follow, how they are treated when they express certain things, their age, their background, lots of things. I'm not saying sexism (not misogny, but sexism, because while I don my tinned hat I think sexism towards women and men is far more of an issue than blanket misogny) doesn't play a part to start it off, if you will, but I don't think it's the deciding factor.

@WaltzingBetty

I'd rather my teen was talking to me about pronouns that some clown off the internet, or well meaning friends.

No one has suggested that they wouldn't talk to their teens about pronouns.

No, but I have counted several versions of "not pandering to this woo woo". So I would guess they wouldn't, other than to tell them what a pile of nonsense it is.

@BrumBoo

You see Non Binary as imposing themselves on women. And for as long as you, and the people who follow that argument, think that, they will never ever accept NB for anything more than a threat to women (hence the calls of misogyny). Now whether or not you agree with gender as a concept, you must see that seeing something that doesn't directly affect you as I see it, or seeing it as a direct threat as you do, makes things somewhat different.

Of course NB imposes on women, because even though YOU dont agree it's still part of the trans identity. That means those born male can still claim women's places and access safe spaces. It's essentially the loophole of self ID. It also still recognises gender as reality, and something interchangeable. Again, a harmful ideology full of stereotypes.

You can ask me the gender question as many times as you like. I don't know. Because I'm not in that situation.

You are though. You accept gender is real. You are female, you therefore have an opinion on what it means to be female. So if it's not down to our sez, and stereotypes are just that, you must inherently know you are female by some other means to recognise others 'feel' the same way. Or sometimes feel the same way, if they're NB of course.

No I don't, and perhaps that makes that part of the argument difficult.

Do you think NB imposes on men in any way, then?

@BrumBoo

I'd rather my teen was talking to me about pronouns that some clown off the internet, or well meaning friends.

Where do you think this nonsense about gender and pronouns originated from? It's emerged from the shittiest, most idiotic parts of the internet to begin with and since it started when the internet was still quite new, no one had the sense about internet safeguarding as we usually do now. A few years ago the gender spectrum Tumblr and the sorts were coming out with that genuinely laughable. Now to disagree with any of the gender -bammer they have set is transphobic. We are changing society for the dark side of the internet we didn't see emerging, not the other way around.

You think nobody had problems with their gender before the internet?

Of course they did. It was dealt with in other ways.

It's the same school of thought as when my older relatives think there's so many more gay people these days.

Nope. Previously they were married, bachelors, or dead.

@Brumboo , I'm not minimising these nutters and their sites. It terrifies me (hence my point earlier on about preferring to know what my teens talking about). I wouldn't be a young person for all the money in the world.

But, I don't think we can blame them for the ideology altogether. And I do honestly believe that as long as we, collective we, are divided on the issue, the more they have to manipulate, and reel in. They live off our division and confusion and reel in our vulnerable.

Hence my honest feeling that we should be accepting . For me, trans is a different issue as I can't equate it to NB, so I know that creates a bit of a chicken and egg.

I'm not relating it to teens, Betty. I'm relating it directly to evidence that men, as a whole , find it harder to access services. It was a minor point that you've dissected and connected where this isn't a connection.

Then why bring it up? And then chastise me for dismissing make mental health when I tried to point out it wasn't relevant to the discussion? If in fact it actually isn't relevant to the discussion

I think it's a variety of factors. Not feeling comfortable in their own bodies, the sex of their role models, the sex of their trusted and loved ones around them, the type of uprbringing they have, the friends they have, the social media influencers they follow, how they are treated when they express certain things, their age, their background, lots of things. I'm not saying sexism (not misogny, but sexism, because while I don my tinned hat I think sexism towards women and men is far more of an issue than blanket misogny) doesn't play a part to start it off, if you will, but I don't think it's the deciding factor.

Thank you - could you explain how those things influence gender identity ? Some of them seem quite random.

I'm particularly interested in why you think sexism towards women would drive a change in gender identity when it's much less toxic than misogyny ?

Do you think NB imposes on men in any way, then?

Only in the sense that they excuse their nonconformist male side with pretending it's female qualities. Which is harmful for other men who accept they are male but think acting in anyway that isn't 'manly' is showing some sort of 'weakness'. It perpetuates the idea that some aspects of personality is feminine, like 'being emotional' or wanting to express feelings. As you said, male mental health is in crisis, it doesn't help that society has regressed the small parts it was actually working with men on in terms of emotional growth.

You think nobody had problems with their gender before the internet?

Of course they did. Gender stereotypes have always been prevalent in society, of course men wished they could 'live in a woman's role' and vice-versa. What we thought we were overcoming was the stereotypes that put us in these roles, but here we are again, diving straight back to square one because people would sooner have the stereotypes rather than progression.

You think nobody had problems with their gender before the internet?

Of course they did. It was dealt with in other ways.
Yes mostly by accepting that as a name or female they were free to live however they liked without needing to resort to medicalisation or surgery or confirm to rigid gender stereotypes.

It's the same school of thought as when my older relatives think there's so many more gay people these days.

No it isn't it's documented statistics.

It's the same school of thought as when my older relatives think there's so many more gay people these days.

No it isn't it's documented statistics.
Specifically around an increase of 50% a year for the last 10 years

@WaltzingBetty

I'm not relating it to teens, Betty. I'm relating it directly to evidence that men, as a whole , find it harder to access services. It was a minor point that you've dissected and connected where this isn't a connection.

Then why bring it up? And then chastise me for dismissing make mental health when I tried to point out it wasn't relevant to the discussion? If in fact it actually isn't relevant to the discussion

I think it's a variety of factors. Not feeling comfortable in their own bodies, the sex of their role models, the sex of their trusted and loved ones around them, the type of uprbringing they have, the friends they have, the social media influencers they follow, how they are treated when they express certain things, their age, their background, lots of things. I'm not saying sexism (not misogny, but sexism, because while I don my tinned hat I think sexism towards women and men is far more of an issue than blanket misogny) doesn't play a part to start it off, if you will, but I don't think it's the deciding factor.

Thank you - could you explain how those things influence gender identity ? Some of them seem quite random.

I'm particularly interested in why you think sexism towards women would drive a change in gender identity when it's much less toxic than misogyny ?

Argh.

I brought it up as a reason why males MAY find it harder to access services and how this MAY account for a higher number of women transitioning than men.

Well....

I don't really want to share my own personal upbringing, so I'll go with an example.

Jamie who grew up with an absent father and a mum he struggled to communicate with, in an old fashioned town where everyone knows everyone's business, where grandad had the types of views I'm sure many of us are aware of, with friends who don't really buy into social media or any of these sorts of issues, who is shut down when he speaks to mum, would have a far different experience should he feel issues with his gender than Betty who has parents who fit the gender stereotypes and a modern, social media driven mum in a modern city and lots of friends who read things online. Your background and your upbringing defines how you see the world.

All of us have probably thought about gender at some point. I, like Brum, think gender stereotypes are absolute horseshit and I rocked around in my brothers clothes until I was about 13. At the age I am now, I certainly have a different 'look', but I would say how I think about things isn't as "female" as some of my friends. And I know, you're going to ask me what is female and what is male, but that's the only way I can define it.

In the same way that I don't buy massively into this whole campaign of women having it terribly and all men being awful because I have had better relationships with some male figures than female figures in my life. Even though I've had some right arsehole exes, I still don't put men under an umbrella. And I've met some right toxic women in my time.

I don't think that. I think that if you're going to argue that NB is sexist, it's sexist towards both sexes. You just cannot categorically make out that being NB is misogynistic. It isn't.

@WaltzingBetty

You think nobody had problems with their gender before the internet?

Of course they did. It was dealt with in other ways.
Yes mostly by accepting that as a name or female they were free to live however they liked without needing to resort to medicalisation or surgery or confirm to rigid gender stereotypes.

It's the same school of thought as when my older relatives think there's so many more gay people these days.

No it isn't it's documented statistics.

Ah, but....

the vast majority of people aren't medicalised or have surgery.

Yes, documented statistics.

How many men in the 60s/70s do you think would have admitted to being gay as compared to now?
Who do you think even asked?

@BrumBoo

Do you think NB imposes on men in any way, then?

Only in the sense that they excuse their nonconformist male side with pretending it's female qualities. Which is harmful for other men who accept they are male but think acting in anyway that isn't 'manly' is showing some sort of 'weakness'. It perpetuates the idea that some aspects of personality is feminine, like 'being emotional' or wanting to express feelings. As you said, male mental health is in crisis, it doesn't help that society has regressed the small parts it was actually working with men on in terms of emotional growth.

You think nobody had problems with their gender before the internet?

Of course they did. Gender stereotypes have always been prevalent in society, of course men wished they could 'live in a woman's role' and vice-versa. What we thought we were overcoming was the stereotypes that put us in these roles, but here we are again, diving straight back to square one because people would sooner have the stereotypes rather than progression.

What is at the root though is that people who are NB (Again, moving away from trans, as you know my thoughts on that) think that that is what they are doing. Doing away with the lot, and just being NB.

There's a couple of people come into the public eye of late who are NB, youngsters, and I've been interested to read how they think.

I just don't believe that at the crux of the passion is "but gender isn't a thing anyway". It's the fear and anxiety caused by men posing as women, caused by this recent avalanche of maniacs on social media. And they have done what they set out to do - created the massive divide.

For as long as we refuse to use pronouns, misgender, and tell them why they feel the way they do, we will not be able to get the people who are not part of this absolute terrorism onside. It requires a uniform approach. One I don't see certainly not in my lifetime, which is saddening.

"No one has suggested that they wouldn't talk to their teens about pronouns."

No, but I have counted several versions of "not pandering to this woo woo". So I would guess they wouldn't, other than to tell them what a pile of nonsense it is.

So when you say 'talking' you mean agreeing. Agreeing that they will use neutral pronouns for their child. Which is why I said your comment was manipulative, because what you meant was 'agree to what your child is asking or something bad might happen to them'.

And so we're back to the OP, who had discussed with their child and already allowed them to make significant changes, but all the same was struggling to use the pronouns.

@Impatiens

"No one has suggested that they wouldn't talk to their teens about pronouns."

No, but I have counted several versions of "not pandering to this woo woo". So I would guess they wouldn't, other than to tell them what a pile of nonsense it is.

So when you say 'talking' you mean agreeing. Agreeing that they will use neutral pronouns for their child. Which is why I said your comment was manipulative, because what you meant was 'agree to what your child is asking or something bad might happen to them'.

And so we're back to the OP, who had discussed with their child and already allowed them to make significant changes, but all the same was struggling to use the pronouns.

For me, yes, you should agree. But that's a person and parental choice.

There's a large spectrum between agreeing, and dismissing it as woo woo.
My comment about rather speaking to them than nutters on the internet wasn't really about OP, but the other end of the spectrum.

I was shot down upthread for suggesting that the advice to the OP on how to get used to using pronouns was an option. I didn't get why her saying she was struggling with it meant that posters immediately leapt to justifying her not doing so. That's what I meant about the agenda.

How many men in the 60s/70s do you think would have admitted to being gay as compared to now?
Who do you think even asked?

Around 2% of the population is LGB

That figure hasn't changed over time because sexual orientation is genetically hardwired. Biological.

It's isn't influenced by any of the social factors you've listed
Comparing sexual orientation to gender identity is comparing apples and oranges.
If anything gender conversion is used by some to 'convert' gay teens (though you deny that this happens because it doesn't fit your narrative)

Jamie who grew up with an absent father and a mum he struggled to communicate with, in an old fashioned town where everyone knows everyone's business, where grandad had the types of views I'm sure many of us are aware of, with friends who don't really buy into social media or any of these sorts of issues, who is shut down when he speaks to mum, would have a far different experience should he feel issues with his gender than Betty who has parents who fit the gender stereotypes and a modern, social media driven mum in a modern city and lots of friends who read things online. Your background and your upbringing defines how you see the world.
You haven't explained how any of the things you listed influence your gender identity or how. That was my question

I think that if you're going to argue that NB is sexist, it's sexist towards both sexes. You just cannot categorically make out that being NB is misogynistic. It isn't.

I'm not sure that you're clear on the distinction between misogyny and sexism
And no one has argued that being NB is misogynistic

The point was that misogynistic society drives some teen girls towards a NB identity, and is responsible for the massive surge in girls seeking GID services. At least one parent on this thread has confirmed that. You continue to state that you disagree it can be a factor (I guess cos you disagree that parent knows their child?) but have yet to provide any alternate reasoning
None of the 'alternative' factors you've listed explain this, or at least you've not explained how they do.

The problem with this discussion is that actual parents have shared their experience to support their views. Other posters have shared data and evidence to support their reasoning.

You've simply said 'no I don't agree and I don't believe that but I can't/won't explain my views reasoning: I can't explain the differences between sex and gender but I think they exist, I can't explain what's causing the enormous increase in teen girls to seek GIDs services but I deny that misogyny exists in society or might influence them, i ' disregarding the experiences of parents in this thread who have that experience, I don't believe mental health issues may influence gender identity etc etc.

You've basically shot down every personal account or evidence-based reasoning yet can't provide any direct experience or evidence of your own. I'm really at a bit of a loss as to why you're on a thread vehemently arguing over an issue that you clearly have a very superficial understanding of and where you clearly are unable to articulate your own reasoning

@WaltzingBetty

How many men in the 60s/70s do you think would have admitted to being gay as compared to now? Who do you think even asked?

Around 2% of the population is LGB

That figure hasn't changed over time because sexual orientation is genetically hardwired. Biological.

It's isn't influenced by any of the social factors you've listed
Comparing sexual orientation to gender identity is comparing apples and oranges.
If anything gender conversion is used by some to 'convert' gay teens (though you deny that this happens because it doesn't fit your narrative)

Jamie who grew up with an absent father and a mum he struggled to communicate with, in an old fashioned town where everyone knows everyone's business, where grandad had the types of views I'm sure many of us are aware of, with friends who don't really buy into social media or any of these sorts of issues, who is shut down when he speaks to mum, would have a far different experience should he feel issues with his gender than Betty who has parents who fit the gender stereotypes and a modern, social media driven mum in a modern city and lots of friends who read things online. Your background and your upbringing defines how you see the world.
You haven't explained how any of the things you listed influence your gender identity or how. That was my question

I think that if you're going to argue that NB is sexist, it's sexist towards both sexes. You just cannot categorically make out that being NB is misogynistic. It isn't.

I'm not sure that you're clear on the distinction between misogyny and sexism
And no one has argued that being NB is misogynistic

The point was that misogynistic society drives some teen girls towards a NB identity, and is responsible for the massive surge in girls seeking GID services. At least one parent on this thread has confirmed that. You continue to state that you disagree it can be a factor (I guess cos you disagree that parent knows their child?) but have yet to provide any alternate reasoning
None of the 'alternative' factors you've listed explain this, or at least you've not explained how they do.

The problem with this discussion is that actual parents have shared their experience to support their views. Other posters have shared data and evidence to support their reasoning.

You've simply said 'no I don't agree and I don't believe that but I can't/won't explain my views reasoning: I can't explain the differences between sex and gender but I think they exist, I can't explain what's causing the enormous increase in teen girls to seek GIDs services but I deny that misogyny exists in society or might influence them, i ' disregarding the experiences of parents in this thread who have that experience, I don't believe mental health issues may influence gender identity etc etc.

You've basically shot down every personal account or evidence-based reasoning yet can't provide any direct experience or evidence of your own. I'm really at a bit of a loss as to why you're on a thread vehemently arguing over an issue that you clearly have a very superficial understanding of and where you clearly are unable to articulate your own reasoning

I havent shot down any personal accounts or evidence based. I don't think I even responded to the personal experiences, I'm not that arrogant.

We are back in the rabbit hole after some quite good progress where you are back just criticising me Betty (and making things up).

I have never once denied misogny exists in society. I just don't link it to absolutely everything.

Many, many people have argued that NB is driven by misogny. Your statement is an out and out lie.

I think I've made it pretty clear how those things can make your gender identity differ.

I'm on a thread giving my opinion because I can, Betty. You accuse me of critiquing other people yet here you are, looking down on me.

Our last interactions were much better so I'm saddened to read this. It's like you can manage being decent and then the mask slips.

The thing is,I don't agree with most of your posts. You don't agree with mine. We will never sway each other, partly because we don't care enough about the others opinion. You think I talk a load of mince and my opinions don't fit up to your standard. That's absolutely fine. I don't like your approach. That's fine too.

The world will go on.

I also have to say Betty although you're not the only one guilty of it in threads like these (despite people protesting they've never seen a thread like this in their whole life, anything that remotely mentions trans or NB goes the same way) where something is said along the lines of you have dismissed the parent with actual experience. Not only have I not, at all, not once , nor directly nor indirectly, this faux concern (the same faux concern for our young people that posters claim is driving their anger against trans) is unsettling. It is only because this parent arrived to say they didn't use the pronouns and all was well that you have latched onto it. If the poster had fake and said actually we use pronouns and gender is very real you would be scurrying to brush that under the carpet.

In reality, I may not be academic or critical or deep enough for you, but that's just my opinion. I, like the majority of people outside MN who aren't with the agenda, go on what we see, feel and think throughout life (which can flip flop, absolutely). Most things are grey areas.

What I find astounding is the passion with which you argue the shape of something you don't believe is real. I've given you a list of things I think influence your gender, whether you agree or not is entirely up to you, but nope not good enough. Not enough reasoning. Yet you think gender is mythical. So it's a non argument anyway.

Part of the reason that collusion between the two 'sides, I hate that term because despite the many accusations of me being a TRA (when me using any kind of term along those lines for feminists gets me a strike) I'm not on either side. I believe what I believe, but part of the division is caused because the likes of me that have opinions based on how most people find them (note, it isn't hours of research online to make sure our argument is critical and multi layered) are condescended to and shot down

In th last few pages I have answered questions to the best of my ability three at a time from various posters and done what I can (I told Brum boo a fair few times I couldn't answer something because I didn't know).

And you then come on and say I shoot down and criticise other people. I have never done that for views, only for what I felt was over the line rudeness.

Back to my point before though. We are never going to agree, so ...

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/180075034X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_QX148RD4GSEXS2E39VSE?psc=1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Abigail Shrier has written this book exploring the huge rise in teenage girls thinking they are trans or non binary. Lots of actual investigative journalism and research done.

"Until just a few years ago, gender dysphoria – severe discomfort in one’s biological sex – was vanishingly rare. It was typically found in less than .01 percent of the population, emerged in early childhood, and afflicted males almost exclusively.

But today whole groups of female friends in colleges and schools across the world are coming out as 'transgender'. These are girls who had never experienced any discomfort in their biological sex until they heard a coming-out story from a speaker at a school assembly or discovered the internet community of trans 'influencers'.

Unsuspecting parents now find their daughters in thrall to YouTube stars and 'gender-affirming' educators and therapists, who push life-changing interventions on young girls – including medically unnecessary double mastectomies, and hormone treatments that can cause permanent infertility.

Abigail Shrier, a writer for theWall Street Journal, has talked to the girls, their agonised parents, and the therapists and doctors who enable gender transitions, as well as to 'detransitioners' – young women who bitterly regret what they have done to themselves. Coming out as transgender immediately boosts these girls’ social status, Shrier finds, but once they take the first steps of transition, it is not easy to walk back."