Non-binary pronouns change for my daughter

[Dollyplum]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and after searching, couldn't find any past threads for this.

My daughter now identifies as non-binary and has changed her name to reflect her new identity. She is now asking us to use they/them pronouns and tbh, we're really struggling with this. We don't have any issues with her wanting to be the person she wants to be, but I can't quite explain why we find the pronouns so hard to come to terms with. I guess from an old fashioned perspective, they/them is plural, and we have known her for nearly 14 years as a girl.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to handle this please? Are we just being stubborn? Should be change the pronouns? The name change was welcomed with open arms by our whole family and she is definitely happier that everyone has settled into this without issue. We have changed her name at school, dentist, etc. to her preferred name.

I'm sure other parents here have been through the same thing and any advice would be welcome please. Thank you so much :-) x

But yes, if you refer to someone who is non binary as a she I'm afraid that would make you a bigot.

Mad aul world isn't it?! imagine writing such a thing even a few years back! Glad this stuff just seems to exist online and the verbal gymnastics hasn't reared it's head IRL, unlikely to happen where I live anyway.

@Impatiens

There is nothing more irritating than faux misunderstanding. The many, many threads on gender and trans that you and I have both been on.

I'm not the only one who has problems understanding your posts, you are frequently not clear in your meaning - there's nothing 'faux' about my complaint. This is a thread specifically about NB pronouns, the first such I've been on.

Well, it's not that it's shaky, it's that you're not accepting them as they are. You being an atheist doesn't mean you're not accepting them as a Christian, but you aren't accepting non binary

It's exactly the same. In both examples I accept they have a belief that I don't share and refuse to be compelled to share, in any way.

If I'm hard to understand fair enough. I wouldn't say I'm particularly academic, I try though.

My point was though there are many threads around this issue that all tend to head the same way, regardless of the OP's premise. I don't think that's totally bizarre of me.

I don't think it is. I'm agnostic but I accept that someone is a Christian and believes in God. Very rarely would we say that God is a false concept and it's all woo woo. We tend to be more respectful than that.

@WaltzingBetty

I don't think misogny is as woven as you think it is. I couldn't believe upthread about people musing whether changing sex or being non binary was about avoiding the pay gap or sexual harassment. Of course it isn't.

Ah yes another misrepresentation of something I didn't say.
I remember asking you at that time what you felt is was about as you were adamant that misogyny didn't influence gender identity despite the mother of a non binary teen explain that was exactly what had influenced her daughter.

You said you thought it was social pressure to look a certain way. I asked you What do you think drives that social pressure if not misogyny.?

You accused me of attacking and goading you and refused to answer

I expect you'll do the same again

You weren't the poster who made the comment about the pay gap. Thanks, though.

@HitchFlix

But yes, if you refer to someone who is non binary as a she I'm afraid that would make you a bigot.

Mad aul world isn't it?! imagine writing such a thing even a few years back! Glad this stuff just seems to exist online and the verbal gymnastics hasn't reared it's head IRL, unlikely to happen where I live anyway.

In my world, it's generational (and I don't mean that offensively to anyone posting here).

Certainly in my workplace, the older generation if you will make sweeping generalisations and tend not to understand any of it. The younger generation do.

But I don't think it's an utterly outrageous suggestion that refusing to accept someone's pronouns for their gender is a bigoted thing to do.

I'm agnostic but I accept that someone is a Christian and believes in God. Very rarely would we say that God is a false concept and it's all woo woo. We tend to be more respectful than that

No again. Where I come from people don't mince their words about the harm done by organised religion and their contempt for belief without substance (including in god).

I take the same approach to gender ideology and so do most of the people I talk to about it.

But I don't think it's an utterly outrageous suggestion that refusing to accept someone's pronouns for their gender is a bigoted thing to do.

You're using more words to make exactly the same slur. And it still isn't true.

@HitchFlix

But yes, if you refer to someone who is non binary as a she I'm afraid that would make you a bigot.

Mad aul world isn't it?! imagine writing such a thing even a few years back! Glad this stuff just seems to exist online and the verbal gymnastics hasn't reared it's head IRL, unlikely to happen where I live anyway.

Sadly that accusation sadly includes at least one parent on this thread who kindly shared her experience of navigating her son's gender identity.

But then @RootyT00t also denies that misogyny has any influence despite another parent reporting exactly that.

So it seems she's much more knowledgeable about NB teens than the actual parents of those NB teens.

Certainly in my workplace, the older generation if you will make sweeping generalisations and tend not to understand any of it. The younger generation do.

My guess would be it's less about them not "understanding" it and more about them thinking it's nonsense. Which is sort of always the way it goes generationally. Some new trends stick some fall out of favour. Will be interesting to see how this one goes.

I'm not a trans right activist.

Sure, you're just excellent at mimicking one.

I don't care more for any than the other.

You have proven yourself otherwise with how dismissive you are on here of any view that is gender critical.

If this was a thread about a woman being treated badly id be supportive of that. I'm supportive of the issue at hand.

You still cannot comprehend that gender identity as a whole comes from treating women badly, and women trying to deny their own female-ness as a result of this.

You are contradicting yourself too. You say stereotypes are offensive, but not every young person using pronouns is a homophobic, mental health and autism denier are they?

I never said they were, I'm saying much of the bases of gender ideology is seeped in the above. Usually it comes from the adults in the young person's life (though absolutely not always, peer pressure has much to answer for) which leads to a young person thinking their issue is being trans when in fact they're repressing being gay or not getting adequate autism diagnosis (again, especially in girls). I advise you research the Tavistock Report as an introduction to this.

We've had this discussion on other threads. For as long as you see the whole ideology as being against women, young people will be collateral. What is the ideal then? Banish gender altogether so that women and girls will feel better? Not allow anyone to change from being a woman because you've decided thats offensive to other women (or because some nutters on twitter have hijacked it, which has nothing to do with anything).

I haven't decided it's 'offensive to women' like it's a whim, like I just enjoy bringing other people down. I was fully supportive of gender ideology myself, until I actually started to listen and research and open my eyes to the truth of it. Again, I ask you- tell me what gender is? The fact you cannot answer this basic question speaks in absolute volumes as to why gender ideology isn't this wholesome liberal-society utopia it could be. Once you start pulling the string, the whole idea falls apart. And it's very ugly underneath.

And yes, I would. I would hate to hear my child being so dismissive of anyone, and so fuelled by hate.

There's no hate here, certainly not against individuals. You are really falling into trans rights activist territory now, regressing your argument into antagonistic, emotional words rather than answering the points presented to you.

I don't think misogny is as woven as you think it is. I couldn't believe upthread about people musing whether changing sex or being non binary was about avoiding the pay gap or sexual harassment. Of course it isn't.

Gender is sexism. It is the very idea that women are like x and men are like y, that we must fit into one box or the other (or jump between them as non-binary suggests). The misogyny comes from the idea that being a woman relates to your like, dislikes, personality, the clothes you wear, the friends you choose, if you liked barbies and pink ad a child. If you inherently believe that's what it means to be a woman, @RootyT00t then there's not further discussion to be had. Gender pushes sexist ideas about how humanity behaves, and that is not something I'd want my children actively believing is the good in the world. If fighting against it/not accepting it is the bad, well I guess I'm just going to have to be a bad person in this instance.

You weren't the poster who made the comment about the pay gap. Thanks, though.

Except I was

@BrumBoo

I'm not a trans right activist.

Sure, you're just excellent at mimicking one.

I don't care more for any than the other.

You have proven yourself otherwise with how dismissive you are on here of any view that is gender critical.

If this was a thread about a woman being treated badly id be supportive of that. I'm supportive of the issue at hand.

You still cannot comprehend that gender identity as a whole comes from treating women badly, and women trying to deny their own female-ness as a result of this.

You are contradicting yourself too. You say stereotypes are offensive, but not every young person using pronouns is a homophobic, mental health and autism denier are they?

I never said they were, I'm saying much of the bases of gender ideology is seeped in the above. Usually it comes from the adults in the young person's life (though absolutely not always, peer pressure has much to answer for) which leads to a young person thinking their issue is being trans when in fact they're repressing being gay or not getting adequate autism diagnosis (again, especially in girls). I advise you research the Tavistock Report as an introduction to this.

We've had this discussion on other threads. For as long as you see the whole ideology as being against women, young people will be collateral. What is the ideal then? Banish gender altogether so that women and girls will feel better? Not allow anyone to change from being a woman because you've decided thats offensive to other women (or because some nutters on twitter have hijacked it, which has nothing to do with anything).

I haven't decided it's 'offensive to women' like it's a whim, like I just enjoy bringing other people down. I was fully supportive of gender ideology myself, until I actually started to listen and research and open my eyes to the truth of it. Again, I ask you- tell me what gender is? The fact you cannot answer this basic question speaks in absolute volumes as to why gender ideology isn't this wholesome liberal-society utopia it could be. Once you start pulling the string, the whole idea falls apart. And it's very ugly underneath.

And yes, I would. I would hate to hear my child being so dismissive of anyone, and so fuelled by hate.

There's no hate here, certainly not against individuals. You are really falling into trans rights activist territory now, regressing your argument into antagonistic, emotional words rather than answering the points presented to you.

I don't think misogny is as woven as you think it is. I couldn't believe upthread about people musing whether changing sex or being non binary was about avoiding the pay gap or sexual harassment. Of course it isn't.

Gender is sexism. It is the very idea that women are like x and men are like y, that we must fit into one box or the other (or jump between them as non-binary suggests). The misogyny comes from the idea that being a woman relates to your like, dislikes, personality, the clothes you wear, the friends you choose, if you liked barbies and pink ad a child. If you inherently believe that's what it means to be a woman, @RootyT00t then there's not further discussion to be had. Gender pushes sexist ideas about how humanity behaves, and that is not something I'd want my children actively believing is the good in the world. If fighting against it/not accepting it is the bad, well I guess I'm just going to have to be a bad person in this instance.

Excellent post.

@WaltzingBetty

You weren't the poster who made the comment about the pay gap. Thanks, though.

Except I was

Fair enough . I apologise profusely. I don't stalk your posts in the way you do mine

I'm not responding to your other post (even though I've never said misogny has NOTHING to do with it).

I've asked you to stop harassing my posts that aren't to you, many times, so I will just ignore when you so.

@BrumBoo

I'm not a trans right activist.

Sure, you're just excellent at mimicking one.

I don't care more for any than the other.

You have proven yourself otherwise with how dismissive you are on here of any view that is gender critical.

If this was a thread about a woman being treated badly id be supportive of that. I'm supportive of the issue at hand.

You still cannot comprehend that gender identity as a whole comes from treating women badly, and women trying to deny their own female-ness as a result of this.

You are contradicting yourself too. You say stereotypes are offensive, but not every young person using pronouns is a homophobic, mental health and autism denier are they?

I never said they were, I'm saying much of the bases of gender ideology is seeped in the above. Usually it comes from the adults in the young person's life (though absolutely not always, peer pressure has much to answer for) which leads to a young person thinking their issue is being trans when in fact they're repressing being gay or not getting adequate autism diagnosis (again, especially in girls). I advise you research the Tavistock Report as an introduction to this.

We've had this discussion on other threads. For as long as you see the whole ideology as being against women, young people will be collateral. What is the ideal then? Banish gender altogether so that women and girls will feel better? Not allow anyone to change from being a woman because you've decided thats offensive to other women (or because some nutters on twitter have hijacked it, which has nothing to do with anything).

I haven't decided it's 'offensive to women' like it's a whim, like I just enjoy bringing other people down. I was fully supportive of gender ideology myself, until I actually started to listen and research and open my eyes to the truth of it. Again, I ask you- tell me what gender is? The fact you cannot answer this basic question speaks in absolute volumes as to why gender ideology isn't this wholesome liberal-society utopia it could be. Once you start pulling the string, the whole idea falls apart. And it's very ugly underneath.

And yes, I would. I would hate to hear my child being so dismissive of anyone, and so fuelled by hate.

There's no hate here, certainly not against individuals. You are really falling into trans rights activist territory now, regressing your argument into antagonistic, emotional words rather than answering the points presented to you.

I don't think misogny is as woven as you think it is. I couldn't believe upthread about people musing whether changing sex or being non binary was about avoiding the pay gap or sexual harassment. Of course it isn't.

Gender is sexism. It is the very idea that women are like x and men are like y, that we must fit into one box or the other (or jump between them as non-binary suggests). The misogyny comes from the idea that being a woman relates to your like, dislikes, personality, the clothes you wear, the friends you choose, if you liked barbies and pink ad a child. If you inherently believe that's what it means to be a woman, @RootyT00t then there's not further discussion to be had. Gender pushes sexist ideas about how humanity behaves, and that is not something I'd want my children actively believing is the good in the world. If fighting against it/not accepting it is the bad, well I guess I'm just going to have to be a bad person in this instance.

In what way do I mimick a TRA? I thought this discussion was about non binary? I've said several times I don't agree with NB being under the same umbrella as trans so that would be an odd stance for me to take.

I care more for one than the other in a particular debate, same as anyone, not as a general rule.

I'm well aware of the tavistock report and the link to autism etc. but I dont accept the worst case scenarios as reason to deny a young person's pronoun

It is hate though. Not of a person, but of the gender ideology. Interesting I can't use the word hate but there have been several mentions of dangerous, terrifying, worrying, concerning....etc etc . Are they not emotional and antagonistic (and indeed deleted by MN?)

I could not be any further from believing that about women. Literally not any further. You have no idea about my own appearance, beliefs etc. But that isn't the case for everyone, is it? They are going on the society around them.

I'm not saying gender is the good in the world. Im saying that it's as worthy of respect as any other personal choices.

@Impatiens

I'm agnostic but I accept that someone is a Christian and believes in God. Very rarely would we say that God is a false concept and it's all woo woo. We tend to be more respectful than that

No again. Where I come from people don't mince their words about the harm done by organised religion and their contempt for belief without substance (including in god).

I take the same approach to gender ideology and so do most of the people I talk to about it.

Fair enough.

I don't stalk your posts in the way you do mine

Yep cos me knowing what I write is evidence of me stalking your posts

Maybe I just don't assume I have all the answers in the way that you do? I'm not arrogant enough to tell other posters what they have and have not written or to tell other parent that they will ruin their relationships with their teens if they don't pander to them. You however have no such qualms.

@WaltzingBetty

I don't stalk your posts in the way you do mine

Yep cos me knowing what I write is evidence of me stalking your posts

Maybe I just don't assume I have all the answers in the way that you do? I'm not arrogant enough to tell other posters what they have and have not written or to tell other parent that they will ruin their relationships with their teens if they don't pander to them. You however have no such qualms.

I never said they will ruin their relationships.

No, you are just arrogant enough to continue attacking me both directly and through other posters when I've asked you for about 20 pages not to , because I can't 'police the thread'.

This really is my last post to you so if you want to waste your energy , fire on.

@BrumBoo

You still cannot comprehend that gender identity as a whole comes from treating women badly, and women trying to deny their own female-ness as a result of this.

Sorry I missed this. It's not that I can't comprehend it, it's that i profoundly disagree with it. Not everything is about women.

I'm not saying gender is the good in the world. Im saying that it's as worthy of respect as any other personal choices.

You don't even personally respect that NB is trans. You're in no position to lecture others when you're already hypocritical.

How can anyone respect a personal choice when no one can even explain what that choice is, regardless? No one knows what gender is or can give it a tangible description. Again you say you don't believe women fix into the box as described, yet you want people to respect the beliefs of the people who not only believe them - demand them to be seen as how one 'lives like a girl/woman'? Bit there's no real misogny in gender . I suggest you stop flip-flopping on the subject as stick to a viewpoint.

I never said they will ruin their relationships.

I apologise. You just insinuated it
Telling a child you won't respect their wishes or pander to them is all well and good but I'd be interested to see the outcome of their relationship in later life.

No, you are just arrogant enough to continue attacking me both directly and through other posters when I've asked you for about 20 pages not to , because I can't 'police the thread'.

You're confusing 'responding to the points you make' with 'attacking'.

This really is my last post to you so if you want to waste your energy , fire on.

Up to you - you've said that several times already. You're in charge of what you do

Sorry I missed this. It's not that I can't comprehend it, it's that i profoundly disagree with it. Not everything is about women.

So what is it about?

@BrumBoo

I'm not saying gender is the good in the world. Im saying that it's as worthy of respect as any other personal choices.

You don't even personally respect that NB is trans. You're in no position to lecture others when you're already hypocritical.

How can anyone respect a personal choice when no one can even explain what that choice is, regardless? No one knows what gender is or can give it a tangible description. Again you say you don't believe women fix into the box as described, yet you want people to respect the beliefs of the people who not only believe them - demand them to be seen as how one 'lives like a girl/woman'? Bit there's no real misogny in gender . I suggest you stop flip-flopping on the subject as stick to a viewpoint.

I don't, no. But I'm not lecturing anyone.

I don't think every young NB or trans person does believe the stereotypes you pointed out about pink etc. I don't think it's that clear cut.

I am most secure as a woman but I'm far from that stereotype.

The living as a woman comes from the fact that to transition people have to live as the opposite sex for a length of time. So of course that is going to have some impact. If that wasnt necessary it wouldn't be like that.

I didn't say there was no misogny in gender. I said that being non binary isn't misognystic.

I'm not flip flopping Brum I just don't think it's a black and white topic.

@RootyT00t you said this:
"I honestly cannot get my head round why anyone would refuse to use chosen pronouns."

What do you make of this article?
fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

There is a difference between just disagreeing with a view, and not being able to get your head around it. I would be really interested to know if reading this makes it clearer (even if you still disagree).

The living as a woman comes from the fact that to transition people have to live as the opposite sex for a length of time. So of course that is going to have some impact. If that wasnt necessary it wouldn't be like that.

And how do you live as a woman without reinforcing misogynistic gender stereotypes?

The living as a woman comes from the fact that to transition people have to live as the opposite sex for a length of time.

I know that you're going to ignore this but how exactly does on 'live like the opposite sex'?