Non-binary pronouns change for my daughter

[Dollyplum]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and after searching, couldn't find any past threads for this.

My daughter now identifies as non-binary and has changed her name to reflect her new identity. She is now asking us to use they/them pronouns and tbh, we're really struggling with this. We don't have any issues with her wanting to be the person she wants to be, but I can't quite explain why we find the pronouns so hard to come to terms with. I guess from an old fashioned perspective, they/them is plural, and we have known her for nearly 14 years as a girl.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to handle this please? Are we just being stubborn? Should be change the pronouns? The name change was welcomed with open arms by our whole family and she is definitely happier that everyone has settled into this without issue. We have changed her name at school, dentist, etc. to her preferred name.

I'm sure other parents here have been through the same thing and any advice would be welcome please. Thank you so much :-) x

@WaltzingBetty

Feel free to punctuate that sentence though - I've looked and I don't think I could have written it any differently.

Pretty impossible when I think there are words missing.

What do the parents have zero of?

Well, you said that sometimes not pandering (ie your irrelevant dog example) , not interrupting etc is all showing respect for others.

I said that this idea of refusing to 'pander' and use pronouns as demonstrating respect is an ironic view as this thread has shown that most people who don't believe in gender and have dismissed the feelings of children in an appalling way clearly have zero. (Respect).

Hope thats cleared it up to your satisfaction, I couldn't bear the thought if it wasn't.

I said that this idea of refusing to 'pander' and use pronouns as demonstrating respect is an ironic view as this thread has shown that most people who don't believe in gender and have dismissed the feelings of children in an appalling way clearly have zero. (Respect).

So you're saying that parents shouldn't always respect their children's decision making, because it's not all or nothing.

Except in the case of pronoun use where it is all or nothing and shows an appalling lack of respect towards children and will damage the parent-child relationship in the longterm.

But we can't apply this all or nothing approach to other situations because obviously parenting isn't about respecting the child's choice in every situation. Just this one.

Just so I'm clear.

I dont think that's comparable impatiens.

But you haven't explained why, and I have, so your comment is invalid.

In what way are you afraid of what will happen if you refuse to use a young person's pronoun? Every single debate on this seems to revert back to violence.

I didn't say anything about violence - but it's interesting that it's uppermost in your mind isn't it?

I meant that if I refused to use pronouns I could be denounced - as you did a few posts back - as a 'bigot'. I might be insulted and humiliated. I might be hauled into a meeting at work or fail to have my contract renewed. I might be attacked on social media. etc etc

@WaltzingBetty

I said that this idea of refusing to 'pander' and use pronouns as demonstrating respect is an ironic view as this thread has shown that most people who don't believe in gender and have dismissed the feelings of children in an appalling way clearly have zero. (Respect).

So you're saying that parents shouldn't always respect their children's decision making, because it's not all or nothing.

Except in the case of pronoun use where it is all or nothing and shows an appalling lack of respect towards children and will damage the parent-child relationship in the longterm.

But we can't apply this all or nothing approach to other situations because obviously parenting isn't about respecting the child's choice in every situation. Just this one.

Just so I'm clear.

You think whatever you think. We are incapable of interacting without your personal attacks so whether or not you continue to quote me or not I won't be interacting. At this stage I don't think we are really interested in hearing each other so let's just leave it there.

I said that this idea of refusing to 'pander'and use pronouns as demonstrating respect is an ironic view as this thread has shown that most people who don't believe in gender and have dismissed the feelings of children in an appalling way clearly have zero. (Respect).

We have respect for children when they make individual choices, but parents and adult also have to draw a line when 'personal feelings and opinions' can be part of a dangerous or even offensive ideology. Why on earth would you as adult 'pander' to a sexist ideology because the children inherently 'believes' it? We wouldn't and shouldn't put up with similar when it comes to a racist or homophobic belief system that our child has picked up and demanded to be taken seriously as 'their chosen lifestyle', why do we happily accept and tiptoe around one that is humongous misogynistic (amongst many other issues) .

@Impatiens

I dont think that's comparable impatiens.

But you haven't explained why, and I have, so your comment is invalid.

In what way are you afraid of what will happen if you refuse to use a young person's pronoun? Every single debate on this seems to revert back to violence.

I didn't say anything about violence - but it's interesting that it's uppermost in your mind isn't it?

I meant that if I refused to use pronouns I could be denounced - as you did a few posts back - as a 'bigot'. I might be insulted and humiliated. I might be hauled into a meeting at work or fail to have my contract renewed. I might be attacked on social media. etc etc

Now now impatiens. Let's not pretend that the common theme in relation to these issues in threads like this isn't violence.

Those things absolutely can happen if you refuse to use pronouns. And (apart from you being humiliated), I'm sorry, but I agree with those things.

You can't call a comment invalid but refusing to use pronouns is not the same as saying you're an atheist because the other person is still a Christian. It's literally the equivalent of them saying I'm male/female/non binary , please use these pronouns and you saying no you're not, no I won't. By your logic, the response to that would be OK but I'm a woman.
Two very different things.

I honestly cannot get my head round why anyone would refuse to use chosen pronouns.

Could you imagine the uproar if someone at my work said I'm Ms whoever and I said no you're not, you've got a husband so you're Mrs.

Could you?

@BrumBoo

I said that this idea of refusing to 'pander'and use pronouns as demonstrating respect is an ironic view as this thread has shown that most people who don't believe in gender and have dismissed the feelings of children in an appalling way clearly have zero. (Respect).

We have respect for children when they make individual choices, but parents and adult also have to draw a line when 'personal feelings and opinions' can be part of a dangerous or even offensive ideology. Why on earth would you as adult 'pander' to a sexist ideology because the children inherently 'believes' it? We wouldn't and shouldn't put up with similar when it comes to a racist or homophobic belief system that our child has picked up and demanded to be taken seriously as 'their chosen lifestyle', why do we happily accept and tiptoe around one that is humongous misogynistic (amongst many other issues) .

Because the majority of people don't believe it's misognystic or sexist. Brum. I appreciate there is a large collective on here who are fighting that corner, but it's just not the case everywhere.

Looking at it from someone who isn't non binary but nor do I follow the other train of thought, I would much rather my child wants to use different pronouns than expresses some of the awful opinions I've seen on here about other people.

Homophobia was defended and encouraged back in the day due to the AIDS epidemic. People then thought they were behaving in that way to protect other people. Doesn't make it right. (not comparing the two, I'm pointing out that there are always times that people behave in a phobic way through lots of different motivations rather than hate.

You think whatever you think. We are incapable of interacting without your personal attacks so whether or not you continue to quote me or not I won't be interacting. At this stage I don't think we are really interested in hearing each other so let's just leave it there.

Please point out my personal attacks? Or feel free to report them to MN
But don't throw unsubstantiated accusations around.

Let's remember you're the only person in this thread that has resorted to name calling, continually criticised other posters and refused to give any reasoning for your viewpoints (not just to me but to other posters too) .

I've actually said numerous times that I'm interested in respectful discussion but you won't do that because it means you can't rely on name calling and misrepresenting the views of others. It's easier for you to create an alternate reality where you imagine I've said things that I haven't and then call me names and accuse me of attacking you when I point out your errors.

@WaltzingBetty

You think whatever you think. We are incapable of interacting without your personal attacks so whether or not you continue to quote me or not I won't be interacting. At this stage I don't think we are really interested in hearing each other so let's just leave it there.

Please point out my personal attacks? Or feel free to report them to MN
But don't throw unsubstantiated accusations around.

Let's remember you're the only person in this thread that has resorted to name calling, continually criticised other posters and refused to give any reasoning for your viewpoints (not just to me but to other posters too) .

I've actually said numerous times that I'm interested in respectful discussion but you won't do that because it means you can't rely on name calling and misrepresenting the views of others. It's easier for you to create an alternate reality where you imagine I've said things that I haven't and then call me names and accuse me of attacking you when I point out your errors.

I've actually said numerous times that I'm interested in respectful discussion

I saw youd quoted me earlier and responded most civilly and you took the piss out of my spelling and pretended you couldn't possibly understand it.

Thats not respectful.

What I do or don't you with other posters has nothing to do with you either really.

But honestly waltzing think what you like. I asked you to stop attacking me pages back and you claimed I couldn't police the thread yet you compel me to stop throwing 'unsubstantiated' accusations around - simply stating the obvious that anyone who reads the thread will see.

I'm done here.

Homophobia was defended and encouraged back in the day due to the AIDS epidemic. People then thought they were behaving in that way to protect other people. Doesn't make it right. (not comparing the two, I'm pointing out that there are always times that people behave in a phobic way through lots of different motivations rather than hate.

So how do you explain the homophobia that is practiced by some TRAs because it's deemed preferable to transition that to accept that you're gay. That's gay conversion. The disrespect shown to lesbians by TRAs has led to members of the gay community distancing themselves from the trans movement, recognising that it creates increased homophobia towards them.

There are certainly unsavoury elements to this movement that include misogyny and homophobia.

Now now impatiens. Let's not pretend that the common theme in relation to these issues in threads like this isn't violence.

I don't know what you're talking about, because you never explain yourself properly. 'threads like this' - what threads like this? this is a thread about parents struggling to use certain pronouns for a child - have there been many of these?

refusing to use pronouns is not the same as saying you're an atheist because the other person is still a Christian. It's literally the equivalent of them saying I'm male/female/non binary , please use these pronouns and you saying no you're not, no I won't. By your logic, the response to that would be OK but I'm a woman.

Yes, the other person is still a Christian. The other person is still 'non-binary' even if I refuse to use the pronouns they've requested - my refusal doesn't have to have any impact on their belief in being 'non-binary'. Unless that belief is so shaky that any test of it, in the form of my refusal, is damaging?

I honestly cannot get my head round why anyone would refuse to use chosen pronouns.

And that's your achilles heel - you can't empathise with other people's position so it makes you inflexible and narrow.

To return to the OP -
the point was that the parents had difficulty in accepting the use of impersonal pronouns, although they had managed to do everything else the child had asked. I don't blame them for struggling and in my opinion they're entitled to refuse.

@WaltzingBetty

Homophobia was defended and encouraged back in the day due to the AIDS epidemic. People then thought they were behaving in that way to protect other people. Doesn't make it right. (not comparing the two, I'm pointing out that there are always times that people behave in a phobic way through lots of different motivations rather than hate.

So how do you explain the homophobia that is practiced by some TRAs because it's deemed preferable to transition that to accept that you're gay. That's gay conversion. The disrespect shown to lesbians by TRAs has led to members of the gay community distancing themselves from the trans movement, recognising that it creates increased homophobia towards them.

There are certainly unsavoury elements to this movement that include misogyny and homophobia.

I don't , because TRAs have jack shit to do with non binary teens asking for their pronouns to be respected and it is deceitful and manipulative to connect it back to that. Despite your agenda, and that of many others, you absolutely cannot justify refusing to buy into the ideology of a child based on the actions of TRAs. That is the equivalent of me refusing to buy into feminism based on the outrageous opinions I've seen from some women on here in relation to the issue. There will always be an extreme.

But thats another post of mine you've quoted that wasn't to you , Waltzing. Each time you comment like that, respectfully and civilly and I do the same and give you the benefit of the doubt and then the next post you make snide and critical comments and round we go again.

I saw youd quoted me earlier and responded most civilly and you took the piss out of my spelling and pretended you couldn't possibly understand it.

I have never taken the piss out of your spelling. You've misspelled several words and I've never commented because your spelling is irrelevant.

What I did say was that I was struggling to respond to one of your accusations (having already defended myself against your non-rude taunts if 'bollocks' and 'offensive' created by accusing me of say something I hadn't) as I was struggling to understand the sentence.

If my inability to understand a sentence written with a key word missing offends you then that's your choice.

Once you re-wrote the sentence and explained the missing word (respect) I responded.

Please as e stop continuing to say I've said and done things that I haven't. It's untrue.

I have not attacked you, I have not mocked your spelling and I've not actually said many of the things you've accused me of.

[quote BrumBoo]@RootyT00t you're starting to contradict yourself. Just because many don't believe gender ideology isn't sexist (and homophobic, mental health denying and autism denying amongst other horrors that come out around gender) doesn't stop it being so very blatantly so. When you encourage any sort of stereotypes about a group of people, you've already crossed the line into offensive. Why is 'accepting' that in children, promoting it some cases, acceptable? You now say you'd rather have a child that actively engaged in mass sexist ideology than one who has the same anger about is as many here? You claim you're not a trans rights activist, but you certainly seem to care more for the 'feelings' of gender beliefs than the horrible reality it brings girls and women.[/quote]
I'm not a trans right activist.

I don't care more for any than the other.

If this was a thread about a woman being treated badly id be supportive of that. I'm supportive of the issue at hand.

You are contradicting yourself too. You say stereotypes are offensive, but not every young person using pronouns is a homophobic, mental health and autism denier are they?

We've had this discussion on other threads. For as long as you see the whole ideology as being against women, young people will be collateral. What is the ideal then? Banish gender altogether so that women and girls will feel better? Not allow anyone to change from being a woman because you've decided thats offensive to other women (or because some nutters on twitter have hijacked it, which has nothing to do with anything).

And yes, I would. I would hate to hear my child being so dismissive of anyone, and so fuelled by hate.

I don't think misogny is as woven as you think it is. I couldn't believe upthread about people musing whether changing sex or being non binary was about avoiding the pay gap or sexual harassment. Of course it isn't.

@WaltzingBetty

I saw youd quoted me earlier and responded most civilly and you took the piss out of my spelling and pretended you couldn't possibly understand it.

I have never taken the piss out of your spelling. You've misspelled several words and I've never commented because your spelling is irrelevant.

What I did say was that I was struggling to respond to one of your accusations (having already defended myself against your non-rude taunts if 'bollocks' and 'offensive' created by accusing me of say something I hadn't) as I was struggling to understand the sentence.

If my inability to understand a sentence written with a key word missing offends you then that's your choice.

Once you re-wrote the sentence and explained the missing word (respect) I responded.

Please as e stop continuing to say I've said and done things that I haven't. It's untrue.

I have not attacked you, I have not mocked your spelling and I've not actually said many of the things you've accused me of.

We will have to agree to disagee.

I don't , because TRAs have jack shit to do with non binary teens asking for their pronouns to be respected and it is deceitful and manipulative to connect it back to that. Despite your agenda, and that of many others, you absolutely cannot justify refusing to buy into the ideology of a child based on the actions of TRAs. That is the equivalent of me refusing to buy into feminism based on the outrageous opinions I've seen from some women on here in relation to the issue. There will always be an extreme.

So you don't think that gay and lesbian teens being raised in the current climate where homophobia is still alive and kicking - despite the AIDs epidemic being well under control, may be at risk of social pressures to re-identify as an alternate gender rather than accept their own sexuality?

And you don't think that a path of only positive affirmation of that alternate gender identity might discourage a gay or lesbian teen from actually exploring their sexuality?

And you don't think that theirs any danger that some teens confused about their sexuality and social identity might find that transitioning offers a societally acceptable solution to being gay?

We will have to agree to disagee.

Then please point out where I mocked your spelling?

I assume it's alongside all of those other posts where I attacked and guarded you that you couldn't point out either 🙄

@Impatiens

Now now impatiens. Let's not pretend that the common theme in relation to these issues in threads like this isn't violence.

I don't know what you're talking about, because you never explain yourself properly. 'threads like this' - what threads like this? this is a thread about parents struggling to use certain pronouns for a child - have there been many of these?

refusing to use pronouns is not the same as saying you're an atheist because the other person is still a Christian. It's literally the equivalent of them saying I'm male/female/non binary , please use these pronouns and you saying no you're not, no I won't. By your logic, the response to that would be OK but I'm a woman.

Yes, the other person is still a Christian. The other person is still 'non-binary' even if I refuse to use the pronouns they've requested - my refusal doesn't have to have any impact on their belief in being 'non-binary'. Unless that belief is so shaky that any test of it, in the form of my refusal, is damaging?

I honestly cannot get my head round why anyone would refuse to use chosen pronouns.

And that's your achilles heel - you can't empathise with other people's position so it makes you inflexible and narrow.

To return to the OP -
the point was that the parents had difficulty in accepting the use of impersonal pronouns, although they had managed to do everything else the child had asked. I don't blame them for struggling and in my opinion they're entitled to refuse.

There is nothing more irritating than faux misunderstanding.

The many, many threads on gender and trans that you and I have both been on.

Well, it's not that it's shaky, it's that you're not accepting them as they are. You being an atheist doesn't mean you're not accepting them as a Christian, but you aren't accepting non binary

I can emphasise with other people's positions, in general, and I understood the OP because she's their parent. Why a stranger on the internet would be so , so passionate about q child they don't know that they have decided they wouldn't use their pronouns, nope. Don't get it.

I don't blame them for struggling either, although I don't think they should refuse.

Can we keep the thread to stuff about NB, as requested by HQ?

@WaltzingBetty

We will have to agree to disagee.

Then please point out where I mocked your spelling?

I assume it's alongside all of those other posts where I attacked and guarded you that you couldn't point out either 🙄

Not couldn't.

Didn't want to.

I just want you to leave me alone quite frankly.

@WaltzingBetty

I don't , because TRAs have jack shit to do with non binary teens asking for their pronouns to be respected and it is deceitful and manipulative to connect it back to that. Despite your agenda, and that of many others, you absolutely cannot justify refusing to buy into the ideology of a child based on the actions of TRAs. That is the equivalent of me refusing to buy into feminism based on the outrageous opinions I've seen from some women on here in relation to the issue. There will always be an extreme.

So you don't think that gay and lesbian teens being raised in the current climate where homophobia is still alive and kicking - despite the AIDs epidemic being well under control, may be at risk of social pressures to re-identify as an alternate gender rather than accept their own sexuality?

And you don't think that a path of only positive affirmation of that alternate gender identity might discourage a gay or lesbian teen from actually exploring their sexuality?

And you don't think that theirs any danger that some teens confused about their sexuality and social identity might find that transitioning offers a societally acceptable solution to being gay?

No.

@Impatiens

Can we keep the thread to stuff about NB, as requested by HQ?

Yeah fair enough impatiens.

There is nothing more irritating than faux misunderstanding. The many, many threads on gender and trans that you and I have both been on.

I'm not the only one who has problems understanding your posts, you are frequently not clear in your meaning - there's nothing 'faux' about my complaint. This is a thread specifically about NB pronouns, the first such I've been on.

Well, it's not that it's shaky, it's that you're not accepting them as they are. You being an atheist doesn't mean you're not accepting them as a Christian, but you aren't accepting non binary

It's exactly the same. In both examples I accept they have a belief that I don't share and refuse to be compelled to share, in any way.

I don't think misogny is as woven as you think it is. I couldn't believe upthread about people musing whether changing sex or being non binary was about avoiding the pay gap or sexual harassment. Of course it isn't.

Ah yes another misrepresentation of something I didn't say.
I remember asking you at that time what you felt is was about as you were adamant that misogyny didn't influence gender identity despite the mother of a non binary teen explain that was exactly what had influenced her daughter.

You said you thought it was social pressure to look a certain way. I asked you What do you think drives that social pressure if not misogyny.?

You accused me of attacking and goading you and refused to answer

I expect you'll do the same again