Non-binary pronouns change for my daughter

[Dollyplum]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and after searching, couldn't find any past threads for this.

My daughter now identifies as non-binary and has changed her name to reflect her new identity. She is now asking us to use they/them pronouns and tbh, we're really struggling with this. We don't have any issues with her wanting to be the person she wants to be, but I can't quite explain why we find the pronouns so hard to come to terms with. I guess from an old fashioned perspective, they/them is plural, and we have known her for nearly 14 years as a girl.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to handle this please? Are we just being stubborn? Should be change the pronouns? The name change was welcomed with open arms by our whole family and she is definitely happier that everyone has settled into this without issue. We have changed her name at school, dentist, etc. to her preferred name.

I'm sure other parents here have been through the same thing and any advice would be welcome please. Thank you so much :-) x

@BrumBoo

The living as a woman comes from the fact that to transition people have to live as the opposite sex for a length of time.

I know that you're going to ignore this but how exactly does on 'live like the opposite sex'?

Why would you think that?

I don't think I've ignored anything you've said. Feel free to ask me again if I did.

It's not necessarily something I agree with, you may call it flip flopping but it's a grey subject.

But the NHS dictates that they live as their proposed sex for a period of time. I don't make the rules if I did, thered be far more John Barrowman on the telly

Why would you think that?

Because that's precisely what you did. How do you actually live like the opposite sex, @RootyT00t?

@JaninaDuszejko

We probably wouldn't describe a rhinoplasty or a mastectomy for medical reasons as a mutilation, so the term mutilation is loaded and does imply criticism. It's probably not helpful in trying to progress discussion.

We wouldn't use them for medically necessary procedures but I've seen them used for cosmetic procedures. If you are cutting off healthy tissue what other phrase is appropriate to use? TRA deliberately obfuscate and use twee comments like 'top and bottom surgery' when they are talking about unnecessary mastectomies and castrations. We routinely use female genital mutation now instead of the more user-friendly 'female circumcision' to describe unecessary genital surgery that is performed for cultural reasons, why can't we use mutilation to describe unecessary genital surgery that is performed because of belief in 'gender'. What is the difference? We need to be able to call these unnecessary surgical procedures by name. Trans people are the victims, it's the charlatan surgeons who are doing this to their patients for their own aggrandization that are the problem here.

MN have specifically asked us not to do probs best not to pursue this element of discussion on thus thread as it's not relevant to the OP's question

[quote WowStarsWow]@RootyT00t you said this:
"I honestly cannot get my head round why anyone would refuse to use chosen pronouns."

What do you make of this article?
fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

There is a difference between just disagreeing with a view, and not being able to get your head around it. I would be really interested to know if reading this makes it clearer (even if you still disagree).[/quote]
I can understand it.

But of course I do, because it's written from the point of view of provoking fear and anxiety

They’re meant to. They numb us.

They confuse us. They remove our instinctive safety responses.

They work.

This in particular. Do you believe the vast majority of young people want to change their pronouns for these reasons, or because they're entitled or narcissistic?

@BrumBoo

Why would you think that?

Because that's precisely what you did. How do you actually live like the opposite sex, @RootyT00t?

I didn't ignore it, I just can't personally answer it.

I know you want me to say that a male would grow his hair, wear dresses and make up etc, but I don't agree that that's what makes a woman, any more than I agree that a to be man would cut their hair and wear a cap and trackies and watch the football.

Those are not my beliefs.

But, when the rules and guidelines are in place, that's what they have to do.

Doesn't mean that those gender stereotypes are what propelled the change in the first place. Maybe it's the legislation thats the problem as opposed to the thought .

Doesn't mean that those gender stereotypes are what propelled the change in the first place. Maybe it's the legislation thats the problem as opposed to the thought .

Legislation is driven by societal ethics and perceptions.

So I agree that whilst the legislation is flawed, it still remains true that gender identity is reliant upon misogynistic gender stereotypes being perpetuated in society.

@RootyT00t "Do you believe the vast majority of young people want to change their pronouns for these reasons, or because they're entitled or narcissistic?"

Neither. The article isn't ascribing a reasoning to the young people deciding to change their pronouns. It's explaining why it's a bad idea. An unintended (by the young people) side effect.

What I don't agree is that it's misognystic. A woman becoming a man based on those principles is no less sexist than the other way round .

I think we would all agree, even my wee pal over there, that it's a massively grey area issue. No one size fits all. I will never say we should never use pronouns. I think on the whole wd should. Obviously if a parent I know personally tells me they don't I'd listen to tjat because I'd know the situation.

We are all normal women (well....) with normal loves. Yet on this issue it becomes so divisive. I appreciate I don't help in that regard, perhaps I'm fuelled by my own personal experiences in life rather than reason and logic. We all have our triggers and our Achilles heel.

I just have a problem with the entire idealogy being written off. I really do.

[quote WowStarsWow]@RootyT00t "Do you believe the vast majority of young people want to change their pronouns for these reasons, or because they're entitled or narcissistic?"

Neither. The article isn't ascribing a reasoning to the young people deciding to change their pronouns. It's explaining why it's a bad idea. An unintended (by the young people) side effect.[/quote]
Yep, I get that.

But is that set of circumstances enough for why a young person can't do it?

'In addition to you having socially transitioned to your preferred gender identity for at least a year before a referral is made for gender surgery'

From NHS.

Doesn't mean that those gender stereotypes are what propelled the change in the first place. Maybe it's the legislation thats the problem as opposed to the thought

It's amazing, you actually for a second admitted that gender is about living like a stereotype, but then instantly try and excuse why it is so. You're very desperate not to admit that gender ideology isn't all about stereotyping male and female into personality traits, yet no one can can explain what gender is outside of these stereotypes. Yet we must respect the beliefs of the person who thinks their gender is opposite to their sex, even though the only explanation ever given is full of the same stereotypes. Or this magical 'other' reason that no one can verbalise....

@BrumBoo

Doesn't mean that those gender stereotypes are what propelled the change in the first place. Maybe it's the legislation thats the problem as opposed to the thought

It's amazing, you actually for a second admitted that gender is about living like a stereotype, but then instantly try and excuse why it is so. You're very desperate not to admit that gender ideology isn't all about stereotyping male and female into personality traits, yet no one can can explain what gender is outside of these stereotypes. Yet we must respect the beliefs of the person who thinks their gender is opposite to their sex, even though the only explanation ever given is full of the same stereotypes. Or this magical 'other' reason that no one can verbalise....

But why do we need to explain it in am acceptable way?

They feel the way they do. it's nothing to do with me.

I don't agree with gender stereotypes. I've said that. But just because I don't believe in gender stereotypes doesn't mean I don't accept that these young people have valid feelings that they want to be the opposite or no gender , and that we shouldn't respect that.

Why would the NHS tolerate someone living in this way for a year before an op if it was all nonsense?

What I don't agree is that it's misognystic. A woman becoming a man based on those principles is no less sexist than the other way round .

Then how do you explain that around 79% of referrals to gender identity services are from girls?

What is disproportionately driving girls to seek gender services if it's not that they want to escape gender stereotypes and misogyny ?

Sorry that should say 70% -typo

I'm not saying it's got nothing to do with misogny, but it's not about that.

Theres sexism on all fronts.

A woman wanting to cut her hair and wear a cap and a hoody is far less socially 'offensive' than a man who wears a dress and has long hair , despite what you see on twitter and in America.

The same reason the male suicide rate is drastically higher than women.

Male are (by the same sexist society we claim only affects women) conditioned not to speak out, not to seek help, to get on with it.

Woman feels uncomfortable in her body. She speaks to doctor, to friends, to family.

Who does a man speak to about his desire to be a woman?

There is also a massive difference between men dressing as woman and women dressing as men. One is highlighted and one barely raises an eyebrow.

Why?

(Again I don't buy into the gender stereotypes, but you know what I mean.)

A woman wanting to cut her hair and wear a cap and a hoody is far less socially 'offensive' than a man who wears a dress and has long hair , despite what you see on twitter and in America.

That's because dressing as a woman is seen as choosing something 'lesser'
Same reasons male names become trendy for girls e.g. Jane's, Rowan etc but girls names don't get used for boys.

It's misogyny. Women are lesser. Thus anything deemed by society as being feminine is lesser.

The factors driving male suicide are complex and multi factorial. Yes societal pressures will be included and of course individual triggers including discrimination occur, but male sex discrimination doesn't exist in patriarchal societies. What you describe are elements of toxic masculinity. Driven by men. Just like misogyny.
So that's a straw man

@RootyT00t

There is also a massive difference between men dressing as woman and women dressing as men. One is highlighted and one barely raises an eyebrow.

Why?

(Again I don't buy into the gender stereotypes, but you know what I mean.)

Because of societal misogyny. The very thing you don't think influences this issue

But why do we need to explain it in am acceptable way?

Because you and others are demanding respect for something that cannot even be given a definition. When someone says they're gay, we know what that means, or autistic, or disabled, or even until very recently a man or a woman. Heck, even Christian or Hindu or bloody Jedi means something, even if you don't agree with the belief! Every single 'label' given to humans in society has meaning. Except for gender. You cannot give something an ounce of 'respect' or begin to recognise it as any sort of truth when you cannot even give a tangible or definitive explanation of what it is!

They feel the way they do. it's nothing to do with me.

Until its starts imposing on women's spaces of course. Eventually it will be 'something to do with you' even if you don't see it now.

I don't agree with gender stereotypes. I've said that. But just because I don't believe in gender stereotypes doesn't mean I don't accept that these young people have valid feelings that they want to be the opposite or no gender , and that we shouldn't respect that.

It's not an if or so situation. If you disagree with gender stereotypes then you disagree with gender. There is no gender without stereotypes.

Why would the NHS tolerate someone living in this way for a year before an op if it was all nonsense?

Many reasons. Firstly because of the denial of self ID, which was essential for safeguarding. The fact that the NHS would sooner send off someone to 'act like the opposite sex' for a year or two rather than actually have to treat them for mental health or other issues (far too expensive for our medical system). The knowledge that most people won't have the expensive operations at the end of it.

I honestly don't think the vast majority of people ridicule a man in a dress because they think of women as 'lesser'.

I don't think I've met a single person in my lifetime who thinks of women like that.

I know essentially men have it better but in terms of things like appearance and mental health, men carry a far bigger stigma

I could walk into a shop tomorrow in my boyfriend's hoody and nobody would give a monkeys. If he wore a pink shirt however...and I don't think you can blame misogny for that.

I have never denied the problems of misogny. I just think it's a far leap to connect it to everything.

Regardless of toxic masculinity, you've almost dismissed the suicide rates there. If the suicide rates were as high for women, we would be screaming from the rooftops about this.
Everything in society makes it difficult for men to access help with anything , and any pointing out that this is the case (ie with abuse, or autism, or mental health) will always just relate back to misogny. And men, and young people, cop for it.

Sorry I wouldn’t be pandering to this. Have short hair, call her Billy etc by all means but she is a girl and no amount of gaslighting changes that.

@BrumBoo

But why do we need to explain it in am acceptable way?

Because you and others are demanding respect for something that cannot even be given a definition. When someone says they're gay, we know what that means, or autistic, or disabled, or even until very recently a man or a woman. Heck, even Christian or Hindu or bloody Jedi means something, even if you don't agree with the belief! Every single 'label' given to humans in society has meaning. Except for gender. You cannot give something an ounce of 'respect' or begin to recognise it as any sort of truth when you cannot even give a tangible or definitive explanation of what it is!

They feel the way they do. it's nothing to do with me.

Until its starts imposing on women's spaces of course. Eventually it will be 'something to do with you' even if you don't see it now.

I don't agree with gender stereotypes. I've said that. But just because I don't believe in gender stereotypes doesn't mean I don't accept that these young people have valid feelings that they want to be the opposite or no gender , and that we shouldn't respect that.

It's not an if or so situation. If you disagree with gender stereotypes then you disagree with gender. There is no gender without stereotypes.

Why would the NHS tolerate someone living in this way for a year before an op if it was all nonsense?

Many reasons. Firstly because of the denial of self ID, which was essential for safeguarding. The fact that the NHS would sooner send off someone to 'act like the opposite sex' for a year or two rather than actually have to treat them for mental health or other issues (far too expensive for our medical system). The knowledge that most people won't have the expensive operations at the end of it.

I can half see your point Brum. So I ask you this. If a young person could give you a definition of what it means to them (maybe I can't because I'm comfortable in who I am- would you respect the pronouns?)

As for 'they' are imposing on women's spaces, we are stereotyping again. This is not about trans and accessing rooms. This is about non binary, who by definition, should be in neither changing room. (No amount of research will convince me NB should be under trans and I don't care how wrong that makes me).

Not necessarily. I believe your gender can be different from your sex. But because of how I am, and how I've grown up, the stereotypes were out the window. But I was lucky.

Interesting points on the last one. I always thought it was in case they 'change their mind' until I read the stats of people who actually go through with it.

@BrumBoo sorry one more thing

What is the solution then?

Let's use a woman, since the nutters on twitter and the TRAs have made sure any discussion of men raises anxiety about it.

Young woman has believed her whole life she wants to be a man. Has name changed, 'lived as a man', uses the pronoun.

Now what?

She can't self ID, because we don't like or allow that and we think that opens the floodgates to violent men.

She could have an op, and be one of the few. Then would we accept him as a he?

Or she is just told by society no sorry you are a woman, you can't be a man, it's all in your head. How many people told that as a youngster do you think say aw yeah, you're right.

If a young person could give you a definition of what it means to them (maybe I can't because I'm comfortable in who I am- would you respect the pronouns?)

What it means to an individual is far too vague. What is needed is a definition of gender in an official capacity, and something far more tangible than 'someone who feels their gender doesn't align to their sex'. Though I'd be quite happy to hear anyone's personal definition of gender that doesn't use any stereotypes or regressed it to 'well it's just what I feel in my mind'. Again, that holds no value to reality.

I believe your gender can be different from your sex.

How. If you truly believe it, then there's an explanation for it. How is gender different from sex?

If the suicide rates were as high for women, we would be screaming from the rooftops about this

Men and women attempt suicide at the same rate