Non-binary pronouns change for my daughter

[Dollyplum]

Hi everyone, I'm new here and after searching, couldn't find any past threads for this.

My daughter now identifies as non-binary and has changed her name to reflect her new identity. She is now asking us to use they/them pronouns and tbh, we're really struggling with this. We don't have any issues with her wanting to be the person she wants to be, but I can't quite explain why we find the pronouns so hard to come to terms with. I guess from an old fashioned perspective, they/them is plural, and we have known her for nearly 14 years as a girl.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to handle this please? Are we just being stubborn? Should be change the pronouns? The name change was welcomed with open arms by our whole family and she is definitely happier that everyone has settled into this without issue. We have changed her name at school, dentist, etc. to her preferred name.

I'm sure other parents here have been through the same thing and any advice would be welcome please. Thank you so much :-) x

I honestly don't think the vast majority of people ridicule a man in a dress because they think of women as 'lesser'.

So why is it then?
Why do men/boys use insults like 'don't be a girl' if a man is emotional ? Toxic masculinity and misogyny

I could walk into a shop tomorrow in my boyfriend's hoody and nobody would give a monkeys. If he wore a pink shirt however...and I don't think you can blame misogny for that.

Interesting though isn't it that your experience also aligns with the societal acceptance and increased numbers of girls trying to identify out of being girls.

Regardless of toxic masculinity, you've almost dismissed the suicide rates there. If the suicide rates were as high for women, we would be screaming from the rooftops about this.

I don't see how male suicide rates are associated with NB pronouns - if you can explain that link maybe your point would be clearer. 2 women a week are killed in domestic violence incidents but it's not relevant to this thread

Everything in society makes it difficult for men to access help with anything , and any pointing out that this is the case (ie with abuse, or autism, or mental health) will always just relate back to misogny. And men, and young people, cop for it.

Umm it is significantly easier to get an autism diagnosis for boys than for girls. Autism in girls was only recognised relatively recently.

Men cop for it? In this patriarchal society where they earn more, hold more seats in government and senior management positions, enact laws, and kill 2 women a week like this poor bloke who just 'snapped' chased his wife around the house then 'choked the living daylights out of her' as she tried to flee for her life'

Yeah you're right. It's women with all the power

[quote RootyT00t]@BrumBoo sorry one more thing

What is the solution then?

Let's use a woman, since the nutters on twitter and the TRAs have made sure any discussion of men raises anxiety about it.

Young woman has believed her whole life she wants to be a man. Has name changed, 'lived as a man', uses the pronoun.

Now what?

She can't self ID, because we don't like or allow that and we think that opens the floodgates to violent men.

She could have an op, and be one of the few. Then would we accept him as a he?

Or she is just told by society no sorry you are a woman, you can't be a man, it's all in your head. How many people told that as a youngster do you think say aw yeah, you're right.[/quote]
Again, you mention 'living as opposite sex'. How does this make the woman a man? What does 'feeling like a man' entail? You use the word 'believe', but belief doesn't make fact. That person will always be female, they were so since the moment they became the cells that would become the fetus that became that girl. Did Rachel Dolezal become black because she darkened her skin and permed her hair? Should we as a society respect she wanted to be and truly believed herself to be a black person?

@BrumBoo

If a young person could give you a definition of what it means to them (maybe I can't because I'm comfortable in who I am- would you respect the pronouns?)

What it means to an individual is far too vague. What is needed is a definition of gender in an official capacity, and something far more tangible than 'someone who feels their gender doesn't align to their sex'. Though I'd be quite happy to hear anyone's personal definition of gender that doesn't use any stereotypes or regressed it to 'well it's just what I feel in my mind'. Again, that holds no value to reality.

I believe your gender can be different from your sex.

How. If you truly believe it, then there's an explanation for it. How is gender different from sex?

I don't truly believe it though. Because I'm not them. I just believe that they believe in it, and I respect that. My understanding is that your sex is your anatomy and your gender is the sex you feel you are. Now I appreciate the point about that being framed around social stereotypes but that's because that's all we know, in the same way I'm well versed in the reasons people believe in a god, but I don't feel them.

I just get so defensive because both sides have become so bitter and in the midst are youngsters who now can't even have pronouns respected. And as I said far earlier upthread I've worked with NB youngsters, so they are not faceless to me.

I tried not to get involved in BLM if you will as in debate about it as I don't come from an ethnically diverse place, so I don't know first hand experiences of other people, it's a face less debate based in what I read . This isn't.

@WaltzingBetty

I honestly don't think the vast majority of people ridicule a man in a dress because they think of women as 'lesser'.

So why is it then?
Why do men/boys use insults like 'don't be a girl' if a man is emotional ? Toxic masculinity and misogyny

I could walk into a shop tomorrow in my boyfriend's hoody and nobody would give a monkeys. If he wore a pink shirt however...and I don't think you can blame misogny for that.

Interesting though isn't it that your experience also aligns with the societal acceptance and increased numbers of girls trying to identify out of being girls.

Regardless of toxic masculinity, you've almost dismissed the suicide rates there. If the suicide rates were as high for women, we would be screaming from the rooftops about this.

I don't see how male suicide rates are associated with NB pronouns - if you can explain that link maybe your point would be clearer. 2 women a week are killed in domestic violence incidents but it's not relevant to this thread

Everything in society makes it difficult for men to access help with anything , and any pointing out that this is the case (ie with abuse, or autism, or mental health) will always just relate back to misogny. And men, and young people, cop for it.

Umm it is significantly easier to get an autism diagnosis for boys than for girls. Autism in girls was only recognised relatively recently.

Men cop for it? In this patriarchal society where they earn more, hold more seats in government and senior management positions, enact laws, and kill 2 women a week like this poor bloke who just 'snapped' chased his wife around the house then 'choked the living daylights out of her' as she tried to flee for her life'

Yeah you're right. It's women with all the power

Because someone further upthread asked why there are far more women who access help for things like this, ie gender services. There's why. Men don't access help.

I didn't say women had all the power, waltzing. Come on. We were doing well there.

I made my points in direct answer to why men are always going to be reported less in these situations.

Re your autism point. True, because girls mask far better to a later age and boys are tested slightly younger. But socially, autism in adult males , and I mean older males, isn't as widely and socially accepted. Have a look on the threads here about adult males with autism. The comments aren't supportive.

Why do men/boys use insults like 'don't be a girl' if a man is emotional
Same reason that both women and men use phrases like man up and take it like a man. We are not guilt free in this.

Interesting though isn't it that your experience also aligns with the societal acceptance and increased numbers of girls trying to identify out of being girls.

Not sure what you mean by this. If anything my experience shows that in reality we can dress how we like and men can't.

@BrumBoo I mention living as a man because that's what the NHS have told her to do. Not my words.

Re: Rachel, no idea.

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

If the suicide rates were as high for women, we would be screaming from the rooftops about this

Men and women attempt suicide at the same rate

Not quite true, but the gap is closer than the deaths because men use more lethal methods as a general rule, women tend to be closer to a cry for help.

However, research has shown that women are at less risk because of their familiar links and that in many cases it is easier for them to ask for help.

My point was that males are always less likely to access support with anything. So it isn't necessarily that woman are more likely to transition, it's thart men are less likely to seek support with it.

If it is the case that far far more women present to change identity, why is it that transwomen are far more commonly spoken of? I could name you several off the top of my head and there are many threads on them.

I don't think I could name you a single transman

Why?

Because our understanding of gender ideology, as I say on most threads along these lines, is based, in recent times, on nutters on twitter. and there is no way that this has not made us somewhat.....biased.

In the same way older generations still think that Paul O'Grady or John Barrowman is the definition of a gay man and I have heard "Oh wow, you would never guess Luke Evans is gay".

We always look to the 'extreme' examples, if you will.

Wee Billy, as mentioned upthread, of 13 who is struggling with identity, is doing nobody any harm by asking to be known as he. Many posters have said he may well grow out of it, in which case he's learned a lesson that he can speak to his parents and that he can trust them and they will enjoy a respectful relationship.

We all remember a time we had an idea that probably wasn't the best, our folk told us no and we did it anyway, just behind our backs.

I think my worry is that teens turn to the dark side of the internet and to dodgy organisations, because they don't feel respected at home. And you know that if they are being misgendered these venoms will be LOVING That, and use that to draw them in.

[quote RootyT00t]@BrumBoo I mention living as a man because that's what the NHS have told her to do. Not my words.

Re: Rachel, no idea.[/quote]
OK, so if the NHS didn't have a say and self ID was a thing, how would that woman be 'living as a man' without the expectations that are imposed by society? How are you male or female outside your biology?

They are virtually as high, I’d be interested in evidence as to how big the gap is

But in any case there seems to be no screaming from the rooftops

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

They are virtually as high, I’d be interested in evidence as to how big the gap is

But in any case there seems to be no screaming from the rooftops

Attempts are as high. Deaths are far higher.

No, but there should be. Misogny aside, male mental health is appallingly ignored.

Again, BrumBoo , you want me to say about appearance and how you present so that you can say it's a gender stereotype.

I don't necessarily disagree.

But I am a reasonably well formed, comfortable, secure , 20 something year old with a clear idea of that.

I certainly wasn't at 14.

Most suicide attempts are just attention seeking or a “cry for help”

This is a potentially very harmful myth that attempts to diminish the suffering of people who have tried to take their life. Anyone who thinks about or attempts suicide deserves compassion and to be taken seriously.

What’s more, once someone has attempted suicide and survived, they are more likely to try again. In fact a suicide survivor is 100 times more likely to complete suicide than someone who has never previously attempted it. For that reason, they absolutely should be given attention

Thats the last I’ll be saying on the subject as I appreciate that this isnt the point of the thread

male mental health is appallingly ignored.

Yes it is. Because gender affects them as well, how society expects men to be. If you're different, you're a problem.

Attempts are as high. Deaths are far higher

Thats down to men choosing more violent methods

Apologies as i said I wouldnt say anything else but i had to say the above

Any minimising of suicidal thoughts or attempts is dangerous

I wont say anything else, its a bit of a touchy subject

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

Most suicide attempts are just attention seeking or a “cry for help”

This is a potentially very harmful myth that attempts to diminish the suffering of people who have tried to take their life. Anyone who thinks about or attempts suicide deserves compassion and to be taken seriously.

What’s more, once someone has attempted suicide and survived, they are more likely to try again. In fact a suicide survivor is 100 times more likely to complete suicide than someone who has never previously attempted it. For that reason, they absolutely should be given attention

Thats the last I’ll be saying on the subject as I appreciate that this isnt the point of the thread

Who said that? I didn't say that.

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

Attempts are as high. Deaths are far higher

Thats down to men choosing more violent methods

Apologies as i said I wouldnt say anything else but i had to say the above

Any minimising of suicidal thoughts or attempts is dangerous

I wont say anything else, its a bit of a touchy subject

I'm not minimising anything! Touchy subject for me too, so I apologise if it's affected you.

I just clarified what I meant the first time round when you said the sexes are the same.

But I certainly never minimised anything and I can't find who used the words attention seeking but I didn't.

Because someone further upthread asked why there are far more women who access help for things like this, ie gender services. There's why. Men don't access help.

Umm.. perhaps because there are significantly more women who need to access those services - you know like all the ones who manage not to be murdered by men each week.

Why do men/boys use insults like 'don't be a girl' if a man is emotional
Same reason that both women and men use phrases like man up and take it like a man. We are not guilt free in this.

Interesting though isn't it that your experience also aligns with the societal acceptance and increased numbers of girls trying to identify out of being girls.

Not sure what you mean by this. If anything my experience shows that in reality we can dress how we like and men can't.

All of which supports my point of misogyny in society. You are ignoring the fact that women can be misogynistic too - of course they can. Women voted for a sexually abusive misogynist when Trump was voted in. Women call each other sluts and bitches and other misogynistic slurs. We're societally conditioned to judge other women for being promiscuous, or 'stroppy' or 'bossy' when the same characteristics are encouraged in men.
Hence misogyny in society. No one said women couldn't also be misogynistic. You yourself have shown elements of it with your whataboutery of male suicide

But since you believe that men and young people cop for everything (but not that you've suggested that implies women have the power - out of interest who does then?)
And have consistently ignored or dismissed all aspects of misogyny in society (domestic violence, sexual assault, pay gap etc) and of course refused to provide any alternative reasoning upon which your dismissal is based then it's impossible to have a discussion isn't it.

You've essentially said 'look at all these examples of misogyny, however I don't believe misogyny is a problem, (even when at least one parent on this thread has said it's what drive her teen towards NB) and no I can't offer an alternative explanation but I refuse to consider your explanation despite all of the evidence.'

@BrumBoo

male mental health is appallingly ignored.

Yes it is. Because gender affects them as well, how society expects men to be. If you're different, you're a problem.

But that's not misognystic, is it?

So doesn't that prove that it works both ways, rather than eveyrthing relating back to misogny?

Couldn't we argue that more women want to transition to men cause they just "have it easier", don't they?

@RootyT00t

Again, BrumBoo , you want me to say about appearance and how you present so that you can say it's a gender stereotype.

I don't necessarily disagree.

But I am a reasonably well formed, comfortable, secure , 20 something year old with a clear idea of that.

I certainly wasn't at 14.

No one was, but we were lucky not to live in a generation that suggested that if you didn't conform to social stereotypes then you needed to start imposing yourself in other identities.

I dont want to you say what 'I want to hear'. I want you to be able to back up your point by giving any explanation as to how gender is different from sex but not in a harmful stereotypical way. Surely there must be one example of what gender is within this perimeter?

We all remember a time we had an idea that probably wasn't the best, our folk told us no and we did it anyway, just behind our backs

But this is different because the child requires the parent's involvement in order to 'validate' their identity.

I think my worry is that teens turn to the dark side of the internet and to dodgy organisations, because they don't feel respected at home. And you know that if they are being misgendered these venoms will be LOVING That, and use that to draw them in.

That's really manipulative - 'do what your kid asks or they'll be sucked into the dark side!'

Couldn't we argue that more women want to transition to men cause they just "have it easier", don't they?

Umm.. if you accept that men have it easier then you are by default accepting that women have it worse....
It's the opposite side of the same argument

@WaltzingBetty

Because someone further upthread asked why there are far more women who access help for things like this, ie gender services. There's why. Men don't access help.

Umm.. perhaps because there are significantly more women who need to access those services - you know like all the ones who manage not to be murdered by men each week.

Why do men/boys use insults like 'don't be a girl' if a man is emotional
Same reason that both women and men use phrases like man up and take it like a man. We are not guilt free in this.

Interesting though isn't it that your experience also aligns with the societal acceptance and increased numbers of girls trying to identify out of being girls.

Not sure what you mean by this. If anything my experience shows that in reality we can dress how we like and men can't.

All of which supports my point of misogyny in society. You are ignoring the fact that women can be misogynistic too - of course they can. Women voted for a sexually abusive misogynist when Trump was voted in. Women call each other sluts and bitches and other misogynistic slurs. We're societally conditioned to judge other women for being promiscuous, or 'stroppy' or 'bossy' when the same characteristics are encouraged in men.
Hence misogyny in society. No one said women couldn't also be misogynistic. You yourself have shown elements of it with your whataboutery of male suicide

But since you believe that men and young people cop for everything (but not that you've suggested that implies women have the power - out of interest who does then?)
And have consistently ignored or dismissed all aspects of misogyny in society (domestic violence, sexual assault, pay gap etc) and of course refused to provide any alternative reasoning upon which your dismissal is based then it's impossible to have a discussion isn't it.

You've essentially said 'look at all these examples of misogyny, however I don't believe misogyny is a problem, (even when at least one parent on this thread has said it's what drive her teen towards NB) and no I can't offer an alternative explanation but I refuse to consider your explanation despite all of the evidence.'

Hang on, Betty.

I'm well aware of the 2 a week, but I don't think they need to access GENDER SERVICES, ie to change gender, do they? But men find it hard to access these. And on the subject of abuse, it is also quite difficult for men to access. Cause it's all just a laugh, isn't it? Women can't do men any real damage. It's far less likely, etc etc etc. Turn on any mainstream telly soap and I guarantee in the last month a women has physically assaulted a man.

We are derailing.
"Women voted for a sexually abusive misogynist when Trump was voted in. Women call each other sluts and bitches and other misogynistic slurs. We're societally conditioned to judge other women for being promiscuous, or 'stroppy' or 'bossy' when the same characteristics are encouraged in men.
Hence misogyny in society. "

Agreed agreed agreed.

However, you've lost me here saying that me point out male mental health statistics in relation to someone asking why more women access gender services, and me saying men can't always access help, is whataboutery? It's misognystic for me to point out that men statistically find that harder? EH?

This is the problem. Unless we focus on women all the time, we're misognystic.

But last time I checked, this discussion was about non binary. So pointing out that men might find it more difficult to "come out" if you will as non binary, based on mental health statistics, is fact. It's not misognystic, it's true.

People committing suicide is not "whataboutery" and you are well out of order there. If it was a thread about men and you mentioned 2 women a week being killed, and I called that whataboutery, I'd be flamed, and rightly so.

The endless pushing of misogyny whenever anyone points out that life is not perfect for males is what the feminism argument far more harm than good.

@Impatiens

I think my worry is that teens turn to the dark side of the internet and to dodgy organisations, because they don't feel respected at home. And you know that if they are being misgendered these venoms will be LOVING That, and use that to draw them in.

That's really manipulative - 'do what your kid asks or they'll be sucked into the dark side!'

I don't think it is.

It's no different to the people who argue that they will let their kids have sex under their roof because if they don't, they'll do it elsewhere. Let them learn to drink in the house, cause they'll do it elswhere. Tell them to confide in you if they run into trouble, so they don't make it worse.

My dad used to always tell us that however much we'd drank and whatever trouble we were in, to call him and to come home. Because he wanted to keep us safe.

It's not manipulation, it's a real concern.

I'd rather my teen was talking to me about pronouns that some clown off the internet, or well meaning friends.

@BrumBoo you've hit the crux of the argument.

You see Non Binary as imposing themselves on women. And for as long as you, and the people who follow that argument, think that, they will never ever accept NB for anything more than a threat to women (hence the calls of misogyny). Now whether or not you agree with gender as a concept, you must see that seeing something that doesn't directly affect you as I see it, or seeing it as a direct threat as you do, makes things somewhat different.

You can ask me the gender question as many times as you like. I don't know. Because I'm not in that situation.