Punishing the wrong person aibu

[Createsuser]

So this is for a friend but it’s lockdown and there’s not much else to do.

DF has two DC’s A- sensible, mature and B- impulsive funny and cheeky. She comes from quite a traditional family who are fairly strict. During a recent family Zoom call with the grandparents B made some off colour jokes then when the grandfather gave her a firm telling off hung up on him. The grandfather has now issued some punishments (don’t want to say what as it would be outing) to A and B. A wasn’t involved and told B off for being a fool and said she should have known the grandparents would be upset. So in essence A is now being punished for B’s behaviour which he didn’t agree with. The grandparents won’t listen to A’s side of the story. WWYD and Aibu to think this is unfair?

3 things.

B maybe deserved the dressing down and maybe deserves removal of a privilege. And probably needs to learn about appropriate behaviour with regards jokes etc.

A shouldn't be drawn into it but they need to suck it up. They need to not discuss it with grandad.

Both A and B need to stop mentioning this and maybe pull back a little from Grandad. It's an unhealthy relationship balance that they have to behave in a way that's prescribed to them to remain having a privilege.
The grandad needs to know he doesn't get to rule everyone's behaviour with the power threat of providing a privilege.

There is a huge difference between jokes about noses and sea shanties though OP - so which is it.

The thing is here is that the Grandfather seems to still think he is in charge and runs the family and can remove and add in whatever it is at will.

That is not a good dynamic at all - it is unfair but your friend as the parents need to get it sorted rather than leave it like this. I suspect she wont or cant due the dynamic between her and her father

Regardless of whether B overstepped the mark or the grandfather is overreacting, A had nothing to do with it and shouldn’t be punished. Jeez poor A.

@Createsuser

It would be completely outing! As close as I can get, B starts singing sea shanties because they are popular on Reddit when Grandfather sunk his yacht last year and is cut up about it. B meant no harm and has of course apologised but Grandfather won’t forgive her.

The grandfather sunk his yacht? He’s head of the family and takes his role seriously? And he’s withdrawn a hugely financial thing he funded for the kids?

There’s lots of excuses made for B’s ‘much needed (?) and cheeky’ humour, but she might think twice before being rude to the man bankrolling her life.

It honestly sounds like a family dynasty novel. Weird.

And poor old A sounds completely institutionalised.

Relationships with grandparents, loving close ones, are not a given these days, they are earned by getting on well, being a bit kind and everyone having an enjoyable time when together.

The grandfather has ensured that both children will not be so fond of him going forward, not because of the punishment, but shouting and holding a grudge against an 11 year old.

The 11 year old won't want to go over there so much, just won't be interested in any type of close relationship.

That's it. Blown their chances.

It's different when a parent who looks after the child day in and day out and has a whole experience of being with them tells them off or issues a punishment. That's within the boundaries of parenting.

I have never heard of anyone shouting at a child who is good enough to spend their time on Skype entertaining their grandparents (and I'm pretty sure he/she's 11 and so might tell silly or funny stories to them) and then punishing them. If the child had directly been rude or insulted the grandparent, that's a bit different, but in your boat example, the child would have done nothing, absolutely nothing wrong!

This is actually weird!

@PuppyMonkey

I’d let this “head of the family” have his nice indulgent sulk and ignore him - and tell the 11 year old child to try not to be rude in future, whilst acknowledging they are still a child and have much to learn. And confirm to the 13 year old that other people of all ages can be twats - even ones who consider themselves head of families purely due to being male.

This. I'd also be looking at whether I could provide this withdrawn privilege myself for all my children, so this grandfather with too high an opinion of himself couldn't use it to exercise control over my children any more.

[quote SylviaPlath1984]@PracticingPerson

So you're one of those people who let their children get away with terrible behaviour. You can just come out and say it no need to beat around the bush. [/quote]
I am not going to dignify that by justifying my parenting approach to a stranger but I do hope you feel a bit less mean spirited later in the day.

The language used here is a bit grim, "head of the family", "humiliated"... About an 11 year old. Sounds like a pretty bad case of fragile male ego!

Grandad is a bit of a dickhead. Assuming the gift is private school or something? He should butt out and let the parents deal with it. The parents need to consider their kids sense of security- should they be receiving a gift which could be pulled out from arbitrarily or on a whim? Not sure I'd be up for the obligation/strings attached personally.

I’m desperate to know what’s been ‘withdrawn’. Have I missed that somewhere?

School fees? Sold the ponies? Not allowing them access to the family jet? Refusing a holiday?

Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions collective punishment is considered a war crime 😁 "No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted on account of the acts of individuals for which population cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible."

The grandfather is unreasonable to punish A for B's actions, but B sounds like a punishment was (over?)due, both for the ill manners and for the 'hanging up' once challenged.

Agree with PPs that 'cheeky' is being used here to excuse rudeness/thoughtlessness and minimise injury to the feelings of others

@Createsuser

It wasn’t intended to be rude was but was taken that way. Definitely intended to be cheeky.

How do you know it wasn't intended to be rude? Grandpa has a big nose, she made jokes about big noses. That sounds intentional and of course, wasn't going to go down well. B needs to learn that being cheeky and making jokes about people's physical appearance is not ok and will land her in trouble. It's not fair on A to be punished though.

So the grandfather didn't sink his own yacht, but it's a bit like him sinking his own yacht?

And B was deemed to be taking the piss? And got shouted at?

And then grandad goes all collective punishment and A is now making pronouncements like “sometimes people make bad decisions for the greater good”?

I think B is rebelling against all this bloody nonsense and I don't blame her.

@Createsuser

From what I understand the parents have had a word and explained that A wasn’t involved and that they had no idea B was going to behave that way. The grandfather is humiliated basically. He takes his role as head of the family seriously.

Its not the 1800s though is it? Unless they are going to inherit an estate, I would ignore him back. Your poor kids!

That's totally unfair for A, but it's the grandfather's choice to be unfair. If it's not something the parents can pay for for both A&B, then it's a lesson for B in how their actions have far-reaching and unexpected consequences. If they're old enough, I'd be having a chat with them about how they could make amends to A.

How the hell did we go from noses to sea shanties? Does anyone have spare coffee?

@TheLaughingGenome

So the grandfather didn't sink his own yacht, but it's a bit like him sinking his own yacht?

And B was deemed to be taking the piss? And got shouted at?

And then grandad goes all collective punishment and A is now making pronouncements like “sometimes people make bad decisions for the greater good”?

I think B is rebelling against all this bloody nonsense and I don't blame her.

This made me laugh!

I feel sorry for A in both directions, stuck in the middle.

It would be useful to understand the scale of the 'privilege' that has been withdrawn, for how long it has been withdrawn and what impact it would have on them if not reinstated.

B is also 11 year old. 11 years old children aren't that mature, and can make stupid remarks, a simple 'that's a bit rude' would have been fine to deal with it, not shouting and punishments. Learning how to interact, what to say, what's appropriate- it's a real learning curve at that age and few children have cracked it by 11! Ask any secondary school teacher. Many adults never get it quite right (as mumsnet threads prove!)

@Createsuser

A is upset but is saying “sometimes people make bad decisions for the greater good” he won’t say a word against his grandfather.

Good Lord. Agree with the PP who says he sounds completely indoctrinated. But of course, as a male, he has more reason than his sister does to buy in to all this - as a future 'head of the family' It doesn't make this particular incident any fairer on him, but it sounds as if he could do with a decent puberty rather than seamlessly growing into the 'mature and sensible' shoes of his elders.

An the grandfather easily withdraw it from b and not from a? Or is it something he pretty much has to withdraw from both at the same time?

Usually B’s cheeky good humour is much needed and well received.

But in this case it wasn't. B needs to learn to read the room. GF may have been oversensitive, but did he say something after the first time? (or was it obvious he was displeased?)
GF is also probably cross that nobody stopped B if it seemed obvious to him that B was having a dig and being a bit bullying.

I'm not really in favour of collective punishments, so I'd probably make that point, quietly and behind the scenes to the GF, and take it from there.

If a child is clearly rude and the parent can't even acknowledge the problem but call them "cheeky", I can see why the grand parent is upset.

As a parent, I would call the grandparent, put my hands up saying B was rude and making B apologise
and would ALSO tell them that's it's absolutely unfair to punish A who has nothing to do with it and that they can't do that.

It's always awkward when an adult is taking some kind of help for granted

I don't think anyone here can give you a proper answer without knowing the proper story,

Taking the piss out of people with a big nose - rude
Singing sea shanty songs because they have seen them on social media - not that bad

Listening to you description, although you have changed the sex of the kids a few times, is A a boy and B a girl? and more importantly would the grandfather have reacted the same way if the sexes reversed and would they still expect A to pull B in line.

Personally I would be angry if someone else tried to punish my child, but they can take away money, treats ect that they are paying for at any time for whatever reason Depending on why will depend whether my child (or me) will accept gifts again

GF sounds awful. An old fashioned controlling patriarch of the worst kind.
B should be told off for rudeness and should apologise but GF should grow the fuck up

If a child is clearly rude and the parent can't even acknowledge the problem but call them "cheeky", I can see why the grand parent is upset.

Whilst I have never found 'cheekiness' endearing even in younger kids - there can be major differences between generations and what they consider to constitute 'cheeky'.

What really matters is does the mother think the child was being deliberately rude, or being silly/foolish, or what? The word 'cheeky' is always pretty unhelpful as it can be meant in a number of ways.

Well the GF sounds like a complete prick tbh. If this was my dad and my kids I'd tell him to shove 'the treat' up his arse and not speak to him until he apologised.