Punishing the wrong person aibu

[Createsuser]

So this is for a friend but it’s lockdown and there’s not much else to do.

DF has two DC’s A- sensible, mature and B- impulsive funny and cheeky. She comes from quite a traditional family who are fairly strict. During a recent family Zoom call with the grandparents B made some off colour jokes then when the grandfather gave her a firm telling off hung up on him. The grandfather has now issued some punishments (don’t want to say what as it would be outing) to A and B. A wasn’t involved and told B off for being a fool and said she should have known the grandparents would be upset. So in essence A is now being punished for B’s behaviour which he didn’t agree with. The grandparents won’t listen to A’s side of the story. WWYD and Aibu to think this is unfair?

Is a grandparent supposed to just sit there & cop it sweet when grandchild is being rude to them?

Was the child being rude to them? Or was she making general jokes that the GF took personally?

OP has said the child’s sense of humour is usually appreciated so it seems what’s gone wrong here is that she didn’t realise her GF would take the joke badly.

OP also said he takes his role as head of the family seriously and gave B a telling off about respecting her elders.

This is not about a cheeky girl hurting feelings and getting long overdue comeuppance. This is about a man’s self-image getting bruised and him lashing out in payback. Child A is being included because (in his GF’s eyes) he saw his GF humiliated so needs to be given a demonstration of power as well.

Says in original post the child made “off colour jokes” - is that not being rude?

The child is likely to remember this incident now & the affect their words can have.

Maybe the other child who has now missed out will be upset with their sibling now for spoiling it for everyone by upsetting grandad & now the child will have more grounds for this to be a learning experience? Because it will be significant & they will remember this as their behaviour had consequences not just for them but everyone around them

Words have meaning. Words have impact. That’s a life lesson.

Also is respecting elders - while I don’t agree elders deserve carte Blanche respect despite poor behaviour, generally having a respect for elders is a good thing.

Learning the limits of what is appropriate language & what’s not is valuable

By focusing blame on the grandparent it will miss out so many learning opportunities for the child - you know, the one who behaved badly?

"Everyone else sat there open mouthed including A."

OP also says the child said the comment THREE times.

The GP is surely mad at all of them.

Maybe he thinks the parents should apologise too.

I think it's hard to know what actually happened without the full details which I can understand the OP can't give.

I think whilst B might have said something that the grandfather took offence to and was in the wrong initially. She did apologise.

The wrong doing has now shifted to the grandfather as not accepting her apology, refusing to talk and punishing A just makes him look like a nasty old man.
People say things as a joke without running through every audience member to check if something similar had happened to them and how sensitive they are.
Something like crashing a car or a yacht sinking without serious injury or loss of life I think if the circumstances were completely random and stupid it is open to be joked about. Although in this case I don’t think there was any direct joking about the circumstances that the grandfather lost his yacht just a funny song
I presume whatever was sank/damaged was insured.
A friend from school came in one morning to say her father had opened a letter over breakfast and had started to laugh uncontrollably. Her mother then took the letter to read and started laughing as well. In turn the letter was passed around the table and each person started to laugh.
The letter was telling them that their boat which they used regularly had sunk but the circumstances and how it was described in the letter just was too funny. Sometimes you have to laugh at the absurdity of life.

From what has been described, it was an inanimate object that I presume was insured. If you get so overly sensitive that you alienate your grandchildren over a thing I think is ridiculous and I would be not wanting to be around someone who puts personal possessions above relationships

"Everyone else sat there open mouthed including A."

OP also says the child said the comment THREE times.

Open mouthed because the joke was out of order, or open mouthed because they knew GF needs to be treated with kid gloves?

OP has said more than once that B's sense of humour is usually appreciated. Seems like the problem here is not that she was especially rude, but that GF's ego was bruised.

But why would you want to “bruise grandfather’s ego” ? Why would you want to upset your grandparent?

Why make a comment designed to shock & offend, then cry foul when it shocks & offends?

It sounds like the child went too far & instead of everyone in the room looking lovingly at their antics they have had consequences for upsetting someone.

When you hurt someone’s feeling you apologise, you don’t say the same thing three times for more shock value without expecting a reaction.

I weep for this cotton wool swaddled generation.

Why did the parents not step in and say something if it’s a family zoom call? Presumably they were present?

See this is what makes me think it's a punishment for the parents as they could potentially have stepped in and tried to guide the 11 year old out of the hole they'd dug.

But why would you want to “bruise grandfather’s ego” ? Why would you want to upset your grandparent?

Why do you assume it was done deliberately? Seems to me she didn't realise he was going to be offended until it had happened. Especially since her jokes usually go down fine. The others may have realised but she didn't know until he laid into her.

When you hurt someone’s feeling you apologise, you don’t say the same thing three times for more shock value without expecting a reaction.

I weep for this cotton wool swaddled generation

The GF is so offended by an 11 year old child that he can't bear to continue to provide money not only for her but also her brother and you think the child is the cotton-wool-wrapped one? OK.

Well, no-one come out of this covered in glory. But if the parents are focussing on the grandparents "punishing the wrong person" and A "telling his saide of the story" then they're focussing on the wrong thing.

she apologised immediately and is contrite.

You also said "B later apologised" so she didn't apologise "immediately" she cut off the call instead. You mean immediately after she realised she had been rude, immediately after her parents realised she had been rude, or immeiately after she/her parents realised that their kids weren't getting their treat?

She suspects he enjoys all the apologies, drama and texts and doesn’t want to play into that.

That is rude of your friend. You said he is usually mild tempered so if something has really upset him he should get a lot of apologies.

Friend doesn’t want B to get too upset

B is 11, not 5, and she still has no filter. Maybe it's time she was upset for once. How else will she understand that her attempt at humour was cruel?

If the family were there and she said it three times and no-one pulled her up, if she cut her grandfather off instead of apologising when he told her off, if the family didn't immediately apologise on her behalf, then the grandparents might reasonably be in "well they can pay for their own kids' riding lessons from now on" territory.

Personally, this makes me think back to the 1970s when smacking children was rife, not that I agree with it but it's a good way to explain my point.

If one child did something wrong they'd get a slap but does the child who looked on innocently deserve a slap too? Most definitely not!

In this instance, the grandfather hasn't 'physically' slapped the children but metaphorically he has, so he's the one who's now in the wrong and needs to be told to amend his attitude!

If one child did something wrong they'd get a slap but does the child who looked on innocently deserve a slap too? Most definitely not

Absolutely this. And to add the one whose being punished for doing nothing will see the utter unfairness of that.

I dont think anyone has said b should not be punished at all, just that only b did the thing so only b should suffer. And even after all that is said, just how much should an 11 year old be punished for?
And if this is also about punishing the parents, well this is hardly the best way.
If i put myself in each person's situation I come up with

GP has no real say in my parenting , also should leave punishing my children to me.

Parents, should think of and mete out whatever is decided.

Child A, I would be fucked off that I was punished for something I didnt do, but would not see my sibling punished again and again. ( I dont actually have a sibling so I'm guessing)
Child B, take the one punishment and be done with it, move on. Hopefully learn.

Even people who go to prison for serious crimes are only punished by one method, losing access to the world and only for a set time. They can still see family etc.
This is a young child, not a serious criminal, how many ways and times does she have to make amends?

Whatever about the grandfather's behaviour, I think the friend doesn't sound like she takes any responsibility.

She sat while the grandfather was the butt of 3 jokes, that those that witnessed were open mouthed about.

Considering the child is regularly cheeky, for everyone to be "open mouthed" with shock, makes me think she was really appallingly rude... why else would they be "open mouthed"?

3 awful jokes?...3
Very poor.
Very rude.
Very disrespectful.

Awful that Child A is being punished too.

The grandfather may be making an excessive drama out of it, but as we don't know what was said, other than those who witnessed it we "open mouthed"..who knows.

But your friends parenting is very poor and her minimising is indicative of it.

11 is old enough to be sensitive to others.

Sounds to me as if this child needs a little less indulgence about being a cheeky madam, and far greater focus on basic manners, courtesy and respect for the elderly.

Her parents have failed her and need to buck up.

In my experience it's only the lazy parents that find cheeky children adorable.

Teachers, other family and other parents find them tiresome and tedious.

I'd like to know did the child just hang up at the shock experience of being reprimanded before apologising?

Because if she did it says more about an indulged child that can dish it but isn't used to being told to mind her manners.

Your friend should spend a little time reflecting on her parenting and how she is failing her daughter.

If after being the butt of 3 jokes that caused others to be "open mouthed" the grandfather wants to stop his treat, that is his choice.

The parent should again reflect how her indulgence has allowed an 11 year old think that her "jokes" were appropriate.

She's 11 not 5.

My post was about A not B though

She sat while the grandfather was the butt of 3 jokes, that those that witnessed were open mouthed about.

Considering the child is regularly cheeky, for everyone to be "open mouthed" with shock, makes me think she was really appallingly rude... why else would they be "open mouthed"?

Again, there is nothing to say the GF was the butt of the joke, and given that in both of the OP’s comparable scenarios the OP has been very careful to show the child was making a general joke about something the GF is sensitive about, I think it’s far more likely he reacted badly to something that was never intended to be about him, and the open mouths were a reaction to realising that B didn’t realise she’d offended him and wasn’t going to stop. This is all about a family tiptoeing around GF’s ego.

I think it sounds a bit weird. Although it depends on what the thing is and the impact it will have by being removed.
My 8 year old nephew was with his friend in my home last year and the two decided to have a food fight in my kitchen and made a mess. My punishment was to make them both clean their mess, not stop feeding them. It's really hard to gauge without more details to be honest.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

Well, no-one come out of this covered in glory. But if the parents are focussing on the grandparents "punishing the wrong person" and A "telling his saide of the story" then they're focussing on the wrong thing.

she apologised immediately and is contrite.

You also said "B later apologised" so she didn't apologise "immediately" she cut off the call instead. You mean immediately after she realised she had been rude, immediately after her parents realised she had been rude, or immeiately after she/her parents realised that their kids weren't getting their treat?

She suspects he enjoys all the apologies, drama and texts and doesn’t want to play into that.

That is rude of your friend. You said he is usually mild tempered so if something has really upset him he should get a lot of apologies.

Friend doesn’t want B to get too upset

B is 11, not 5, and she still has no filter. Maybe it's time she was upset for once. How else will she understand that her attempt at humour was cruel?

If the family were there and she said it three times and no-one pulled her up, if she cut her grandfather off instead of apologising when he told her off, if the family didn't immediately apologise on her behalf, then the grandparents might reasonably be in "well they can pay for their own kids' riding lessons from now on" territory.

Yes, the answer is very balanced.

The fact the 11 year old hung up a family call was pretty rude in and of itself, and if you're right and the apologies only came after the treat was withdrawn, I wouldn't be convinced by them either. My gran pulled me up on something at that age and the whole journey home my parents educated me on why what I'd done was wrong.

I still remember the whole thing years later - including what I learned! Because bad feelings can sometimes let us learn the consequences of bad behaviour.

We don't want to feel them again so we're more careful. If the 11 year old is always being coddled about her spirited behaviour then it's probably no bad thing if she learns consequences of it.

@Createsuser

My post was about A not B though

Some people seem to be missing this, @Createsuser.

People are so hung up on B being rude.
Children are meant to be able to explore their boundaries of their humour and sense of self.

Again - the GF is the adult here. If he has a close enough relationship to be having frequent calls and the the kids are happy to chat away to him, he should equally be able to stop or correct her without yelling and throwing a tantrum.

Also, the child has apologised. Why does the adult have such an issue accepting it?

I have rosacea. It is very obvious. I have often had kids (nieces and nephews) comment on it. Do I get offended because they are literately talking about the nose on the end of my face? No, because they are kids.

@sillysmiles

People are so hung up on B being rude. Children are meant to be able to explore their boundaries of their humour and sense of self.

Again - the GF is the adult here. If he has a close enough relationship to be having frequent calls and the the kids are happy to chat away to him, he should equally be able to stop or correct her without yelling and throwing a tantrum.

Also, the child has apologised. Why does the adult have such an issue accepting it?

I have rosacea. It is very obvious. I have often had kids (nieces and nephews) comment on it. Do I get offended because they are literately talking about the nose on the end of my face? No, because they are kids.

Well, sure, but then not everyone will react as you do, without offence.

I agree that children learn about boundaries, and that occasionally will include crossing the line and discovering that there are consequences, including someone having a reaction that might materially affect you, or that someone might not find your apology sufficient. And including that feeling bad as a result of upsetting someone is actually a valid feeling, not one to be pushed away or dismissed.

Since not all adults will make it to adulthood as adjusted as you have, it's worth helping kids learn and navigate those outcomes too.

As I said upthread, I fired a woman who was very put out that I didn't accept her apology for her joke. The racist joke she made about a customer. She was especially surprised because her previous line manager had accepted her apology for verbally and drunkenly racially abusing a customer and hadn't done anything to address her behaviour either.

Well, sure, but then not everyone will react as you do, without offence

But she is the child, he is the adult.

She said something that he found offensive but wasn't directed at him.

He could have stopped the conversation there. He could have rang his daughter, the child's mother later and said, look her cheekiness is stepping over a line. That was offensive. He doesn't seem to have any recognition of intention, only his emotional over reaction - because he felt that as head of the household he was being disrespected. Honestly, to me, that tells me everything I need to know about the grandfather.
He doesn't seem to have separated that she said something -he took as offensive, but something she didn't mean as offensive to him.

And it is children these days that are accused of being easily offended snowflakes?

Surely we all have incidents that as children we said something wrong, didn't mean it as offensive, but as adults we cringe when we think of them?

OP,
Well aware you have posted about A.🙄

However, it can't be taken in isolation because A's parents are minimising B's actions, dismissing the usually mild mannered grandfather for enjoying the drama, while being concerned that B does not feel upset about her rudeness to her grandfather and the upset she has caused.

As for child A, his calm acceptance of a punishment that is completely unconnected to him, also says a lot about the family dynamic.

Very poor parenting.

@sillysmiles

Well, sure, but then not everyone will react as you do, without offence

But she is the child, he is the adult.

She said something that he found offensive but wasn't directed at him.

He could have stopped the conversation there. He could have rang his daughter, the child's mother later and said, look her cheekiness is stepping over a line. That was offensive. He doesn't seem to have any recognition of intention, only his emotional over reaction - because he felt that as head of the household he was being disrespected. Honestly, to me, that tells me everything I need to know about the grandfather.
He doesn't seem to have separated that she said something -he took as offensive, but something she didn't mean as offensive to him.

And it is children these days that are accused of being easily offended snowflakes?

Surely we all have incidents that as children we said something wrong, didn't mean it as offensive, but as adults we cringe when we think of them?

But that's partly my point.

You can't rely on another person, adult or not, to have the same emotional reaction as you or as other adults or children.

I manage half a dozen staff, and I'd be doing a pretty bad job of it if I treated them all the same because they're very different personalities. And even more importantly, I've had to be accountable to managers with very different personalities too!

We get a lot of posts on here about things like "blew my top because DH left his cup on the drainer instead of putting it in the dishwasher" and during the course of the thread it turns out he's a 50s husband doing nothing around the house and with the DCs and abusive with money (or something. Take your pick, there are enough of them)

And inevitably someone will come along with "it's only a cup, give your head a wobble, why all the LTB". And someone will patiently explain that the cup was the final straw.

So i wonder, given the update that B is like this 95% of the time (no internal editor, no filter?) and this was the GFs final straw?

Because that would put a new slant on it. In that case it would be up to the GF to say "B, you know i don't like that" and 2nd time for the mum to step up and say "B don't do that". I totally get that if this wasn't happening for some reason the GF threw his toys out of the pram as B did. (B is 11 not 3)

for me, the issue isn’t that the grandfather has withdrawn the treat/privilege/whatever from B, who was rude to him - it’s the way he is punishing A in exactly the same way, despite the fact that A has done absolutely nothing wrong. How is that not unfair to A?

(sorry, can't remember who addressed this to me) It is, of course, not fair to A (I should have been clearer about this). However a trawl of OPs posts shows that A is in agreement with GF that B crossed a line. There is a whole lot going on there, most likely, and maybe it is that A is sick of B being indulged as the baby of the family and not learning manners? Who knows. I kind of feel bad for A and hope that they're getting some sort of compensation for having to put up with this.