Punishing the wrong person aibu

[Createsuser]

So this is for a friend but it’s lockdown and there’s not much else to do.

DF has two DC’s A- sensible, mature and B- impulsive funny and cheeky. She comes from quite a traditional family who are fairly strict. During a recent family Zoom call with the grandparents B made some off colour jokes then when the grandfather gave her a firm telling off hung up on him. The grandfather has now issued some punishments (don’t want to say what as it would be outing) to A and B. A wasn’t involved and told B off for being a fool and said she should have known the grandparents would be upset. So in essence A is now being punished for B’s behaviour which he didn’t agree with. The grandparents won’t listen to A’s side of the story. WWYD and Aibu to think this is unfair?

So she has to apologize for singing songs that are popular for her generation, because her grandfather's ego must be appeased at all times. And all because granddaddy is sensitive about sinking the family yacht, and doesn't want his authority challenged by anyone who might ever comment on the sea again.

Oh, she is going to go FAR AWAY when she is older.

You know how people think it's hilarious and ridiculous when youngsters demand "trigger warnings" for more and more silly things, and they say "oh, kids these days"?

This proves it's not just kids. Grandpa is triggered, aka feels a glimmer of shame because he's reminded of a moment of past incompetence, even though it wasn't being directly referenced, and he lashes out as a result.

So much for the wisdom of age.

Cheeky is just rudeness you expect to get away with.

I strongly disagree with posters saying that the treat should be unconditional. That sort of logic makes sense for parents, who have a full picture of child and a responsibility to provide for them. Other adults, even related ones, do NOT have that role, and children should learn that how they treat people will affect how those people like them. It's only controlling if the GF demands specific action or affection with the treat. As it is, he's just withdrawn it.

(Imagine this were two adult women - one teases the other repeatedly about a sensitive issue. Other gets upset and calls them out. Teasing one hangs up without apologising because she is hurt. Other decides she doesn't actually want to give her spare concert ticket to her after all - you could bet the thread would be going in her favour.)

I would leave the grandparents to it and provide the thing myself. I hate any kind of financial obligation within families, it ruins relationships.

@HaveringWavering

@HaveringWavering

the child supported to behave differently next time.

Ha ha I’ll remember that gem!

“Tarquin, I can see you drawing on the walls. Just wait a moment dear while I come and support you to behave differently”

Lol!! 🤣🤣

To me, A's comment sounds like he thinks the grandfather's response may be a reasonably reaction to what B did, which as he was there and no-one her was, makes me suspect that she was rude rather than cheeky. I think siblings can sometimes be better at recognizing that in each other than parents.

@Createsuser

From what I understand the parents have had a word and explained that A wasn’t involved and that they had no idea B was going to behave that way. The grandfather is humiliated basically. He takes his role as head of the family seriously.

His role as the Head of the family?? Maybe he should unclench a bit

Sooo contact with the grandparents would be ceasing for now.

Until they noticed, asked and were firmly told that a. they'd caused some issues with the blanket 'punishment' and so no contact for now and b. in future, while they had every right to change their mind about things they were providing for the children, they need to remember that they're not the parent and don't get to use things like this as a way of punishing - they aren't the ones who decide on punishments. If they think one is necessary, they ask the parents to intervene and then leave the scope of the punishment to the parents.

@Createsuser

It would be completely outing! As close as I can get, B starts singing sea shanties because they are popular on Reddit when Grandfather sunk his yacht last year and is cut up about it. B meant no harm and has of course apologised but Grandfather won’t forgive her.

If that is a genuine description of the situation albeit with some of the details changed then the grandfather is just a sad old man who is letting his wounded ego (caused by his own failings) impact his relationship with his grandchildren. This is all about him and his lack of ability to be a mature person. Pathetic.

I hope B doesn't do any more grovelling and grows up to realise that tolerating people like this is something she does not have to do.

while they had every right to change their mind about things they were providing for the children, they need to remember that they're not the parent and don't get to use things like this as a way of punishing - they aren't the ones who decide on punishments. If they think one is necessary, they ask the parents to intervene and then leave the scope of the punishment to the parents.

They do have the right.

@AKAanothername

Dos he pay the school fees? If he's withdrawn those from both kids then he's being incredibly nasty and childish.

My thought was school fees, and the person he is actually punishing is your friend for not 'controlling' her children. If it is school fees, this is a prime example of why you shouldn't accept grandparents paying them if there are going to be strings attached.

@Meowchickameowmeow

How the hell did we go from noses to sea shanties? Does anyone have spare coffee?

@Createsuser

Sorry A is a boy (13), B girl (11). B has apologised, grandparents are still angry and not listening to anyone.

Maybe they've just had enough of B's 'cheekiness'. She's obviously not as cute and funny as she thinks she thinks she is and they've reached their limit.

Its really hard to judge without you telling us what it is.

However, I am of the opinion that if someone uses their money or time as a way of controlling behaviour, then the best response after that is to never accept gifts or time from them.

So if grumpy head of the family decides to offer something financial or gift to A and B in the future, your friend should politely decline, even if your friend can't give that to her dcs. It is clear any offers from grandad come with conditions that aren't spelt out in advance, and therefore should be rejected, regardless of how good they sound.

Its an important lesson to both A and B about not putting yourself in a position where someone else can control you.

I was once cheeky to my gran. I was in primary I think. Don't know what I said, but clearly it was perceived to be rude. My gran was not authoritarian, but had lost a husband v young and raised 6 kids. She did not take any shit.

I was marched round to apologise and I have never, ever forgotten.

I also think a lot of rude behaviour is excused as cheeky (although isn't cheeky rude/impertinent/saucy/bold?), which then causes problems when said child comes up against someone who doesn't tolerate it. Ds is same age and tries to push it with his dad at times, but he's put in his place. I'd probably be seen a monster on here cos I've just taken him off xbox and banned screens until further notice, as I've found a banana skin on the floor in front of the telly. He was too absorbed to go and put it in the bin.

I think without knowing exactly what was said and what the financing is we can’t really say anything.

Aside from that, GF sounds controlling - You can’t bank roll something in return for only behaviour that you approve of. You either bank roll because you love your grandchildren and want to do it, not to expect certain things from them/conditions, or you don’t bank roll.

My in-laws gave us money from an inheritance with the instructions you must use it to buy a new car. They didn’t have to give us any money and it was very much appreciated, but they didn’t really have the right to tell us what we must spend it on. I see the same thing here with the GF.

Similarly, I paid a substantial sum for my dd for something - I do not expect undying gratitude forever from her. When she’s being bolshy I do think inwardly, I’ve paid x amount for you please be more thoughtful, but realistically I don’t expect her to be happy smiley halo dd 100% of the time in return for what I did for her. It doesn’t work that way. I did what I did because I wanted to, and did not expect anything back in return.

In the case here, the girl is 11. Yes maybe old enough to understand some things shouldn’t be said, but still an 11 year old child who makes mistakes and bad judgements. Don’t we all, even as adults?

B is only 11. You know how some adults are great, funny, entertaining company? Odds are that at 11 they were occasionally cheeky and read the room wrong.

I think I need to know what's been withdrawn. If it's something like ballet lessons as above, then it's unfair on A. And probably a bit OTT for B, assuming they're normally good fun and good natured but just got it wrong on this occasion. But ultimately not a big deal and the parents can do something in its place. A lesson to the kids that some adults are oversensitive assholes.

If it's school fees then it's unforgivable to withdraw them or even threaten it. I'm not a particular fan of private schooling, but expecting the children to put up with the level of upheaval moving schools involves for the sake of a joke is terrible.

Aside from that, GF sounds controlling - You can’t bank roll something in return for only behaviour that you approve of. You either bank roll because you love your grandchildren and want to do it, not to expect certain things from them/conditions, or you don’t bank roll.

You can. If the parent doesn’t like it they can refuse the gift, of course, but a grandparent can say, “This is yours until you are no longer respectful.”

It's hard to say without knowing what she said (your examples are so different it's hard to judge) and what he's paying for. I can't see how it's outing as there are so many families that have grandparents funding their children.

I think that the grandparents are taking this too far.

B is only 11, granted that doesn’t make it ok to be rude but it doesn’t sound like she directly insulted the grandfather. Also I don’t think it would be appropriate to shout at someone rather than just telling B her comments are upsetting and she needs to stop.

There’s not much you can do around the gift - although I do think it’s some kind of power play to withdraw the gift from A as well as B.

If B has apologised I think it’s quite immature to ignore the apology completely (different if they had said they accept it but are still hurt).
I would reiterate to A&B how this isn’t a great way to deal with conflict.

B needs to understand how others can be more sensitive to jokes, not everyone has the same sense of humour and how to read her audience - also how although insults might seem funny on YouTube they are not when said in real life (My SDD struggled with this for a while around 11/12 when she had watch prank videos etc with her friends).

@Meowchickameowmeow

How the hell did we go from noses to sea shanties? Does anyone have spare coffee?

I've just had my 5th one and strong painkillers, my mind is still blown over noses and yachts.

There isn't sufficient detail nor backstory to understand this.

I had a grandfather and father who shared the same name (think John Smith). We all lived together in a rented house. My father had been a very late child so my grandfather was very elderly when we were young children.

My grandfather's leverage was that if we annoyed him (3 adults, several young children in a small house - annoyance could be normal noise), he would fetch out the rent book, show it to me, and say, "That's my name on there. I can put you out of this house any time I like." We lived together from when I was a toddler until he died when I was 9.

Usually B’s cheeky good humour is much needed and well received.

Or people are just smiling and really thinking, what a cheeky little shit. Very much what I think of one of my youngests friends.

I think it's unfair to punish both children.

The children are stuck in lockdown not seeing anyone. I'm not excusing poor manners but they're not seeing friends so are possibly being silly as they might be with friends.

The Head of the household thing is strange. Is it a different culture? I don't know many grandfathers who insist on being head of the family.

Then B hung up because she was hurt.

Your friend needs to have sharp words with her daughter - both the jokes & hanging up were downright rude. If B was "hurt" - well, she needs to learn the consequences of unnecessary hurtful behaviour.