AIBU to think Gina Carano shouldn’t have been fired?

[NinaMimi]

Apologies if this has been asked before as the story was out yesterday. I did search and couldn’t find it.

I think the actor said some really stupid things and I don’t agree with her politics but I haven’t seen anything that crossed the line. The worse thing seems to have been comparing hating someone for their political beliefs to the persecution of the Jews in Germany- which is monumentally dumb, but that just reads to me like they’re not an intelligent person rather than anti-jewish.

Opinions?

I’m also a big fan of Clint Eastwood who comes across as a right wing nut but I don’t think anyone is going to cancel him. I wonder if there’s a level of fame you need to say dumb things.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/newsbeat-56022084

it's not as simple as "actions having consequences", it's about exactly who is deciding what actions are unacceptable - judge and jury with no way back, no chance for anyone to redeem themselves, only for them to lose absolutely everything for holding views that The Mob has decreed in acceptable.

This is an apt summing up. For instance - see the current thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4163253-Allison-Bailey-to-sue-Stonewall-thread-2

Allison Bailey is a black, lesbian human rights lawyer who believes that sometimes women's rights and trans rights come into conflict, and where they do we need open discussion, not "no debate." She lost her position at Garden Court Chambers, she claims, as a result of Stonewall pressuring GCC to remove her because of her "transphobia" - and is currently sueing Stonewall.

The question is what views is it acceptable to espouse in one's private life, outside the workplace, should one be sacked for those views, and who gets to decide?

Make no mistake - I think Carano's views on politics (Trumpism, covid denial conspiracy) are rank. I also think the now-deleted tweet was antisemitic - not because she attacked Jewish people, but because likening a relatively trivial thing to the Holocaust is a form of antisemitism in its hyperbole. (There were plenty of historical examples - McCarthyism, the Stasi in East Germany - that she could have chosen to make her point without trivialising the holocaust).

The key question, though, is should she have lost her job for it? And if so, why (reputational damage? appearing in a kids' programme and thus potentially corrupting vulnerable youngsters?) and where do we draw the line? Who can be sacked for wrong-think? Anyone in the public eye? Anyone customer-facing? Anyone at all? (A Scottish young adult fiction author recently lost work as a result of "transphobia" - her name didn't even appear on the book covers, she was part of a collective of authors who ghost-wrote for a publisher under a pseudonym.)

audiences do not want to see Gina Carano and will not watch her.

We'll never know whether this is true or whether audiences are capable of separating actor from character because she's lost her job. Acting is precarious and she was unwise to get political, but maybe keeping a job shouldn't be conditional on also keeping unpopular opinions to herself.
Although I could be persuaded that a blanket rule should exist whereby all actors keep their political opinions to themselves looking at you Emma Thompson

It's a stupid analogy because Jewish people were not persecuted and murdered because of anything they said or did. They were murdered because they were Jewish, because of who they were. This is part of what sets the Holocaust apart and why you shouldn't make glib comparisons.

The Stasi are more in the same universe, but this is still a stupid comparison. One stray remark could get you and your family sent to prison for years. It's so far beyond losing an acting job, it's ridiculous.

So yes, what she wrote was both dumb and offensive. And no one is legally required to employ her.

Funny how it's only 'cancel culture' when it happens to Republicans. I don't see any of them sticking up for Colin Kaepernick.

it's about exactly who is deciding what actions are unacceptable - judge and jury with no way back, no chance for anyone to redeem themselves, only for them to lose absolutely everything for holding views that The Mob has decreed in acceptable.

Complete utter nonsense. She missed out on one single acting role - a role that hundreds of actresses auditioned for and didn't get, for less reasonable grounds (eg rejected due to being too fat, rejected due to being too old). Why are you not advocating for every single actress who is rejected for an acting role? For actresses who are fired for gaining weight, or getting pregnant?

Because on Mumsnet only racists deserve defending apparently.

There is no "mob." Just a handful of people expressing an opinion online, and one single TV company who calmly assessed the options and came to the conclusion they didn't want to give her a new contract. Considering she's a Covid-denier and hardcore anti-masker it's very possible they fired her because they worried she'd endanger other people onset. Even if they fired her solely because of her racist tweets, it's perfectly acceptable to not give an acting job to someone who may actively hurt your viewing figures.

Are the general public obligated to watch TV shows starring people they dislike, lest they be accused of being part of "a mob" engaging in "cancel culture"?

no way back, no chance for anyone to redeem themselves

Bollocks. Literally all she needs to do is STOP BEING RACIST. Hollywood loves giving privileged white people second chances. Plenty of celebs have come back from far worse. All Gina had to do was say yes to her publicist writing some fake, weaselly apology going "I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I'm trying to learn" and she would not have been "cancelled." It would literally be the easiest thing in the world for her to "redeem herself" and "come back" but she refuses.

Besides, right-wing entertainment is a growing and very profitable field. As I said in the Seyi thread, Fundamentalist Christian entertainment is a billion dollar industry, movies like the Rapture series are very successful. Oh Seyi and Gina don't want to act in those movies, they only want to act in West End shows and Star Wars? Tough, no one is entitled to those things.

Besides, there's absolutely nothing stopping them from doing what 99% of actors have to do and get a job in a call centre or a cafe. Why is it that being a racist means you're too SPESHUL to do what 99% of your peers do? And in Gina's case she could go back to her old career in MMA which is an area of the entertainment industry where "villain personas" sell really well, and which has an audience demographic that skews heavily right wing, where Gina probably would not be judged or rejected for her political views.

lose absolutely everything

She doesn't get to be a TV star anymore, no one's burned her house down with flaming pitchforks. You really consider "not being a famous TV star" to be "losing absolutely everything"?

No one is ENTITLED to become a celebrity. Being liked by the public is literally your job if you're a celebrity (excepting a few who have actively courted fame by creating anti-hero personas) and it's a job .1% of aspiring actors actually attain.

Funny how it's only 'cancel culture' when it happens to Republicans. I don't see any of them sticking up for Colin Kaepernick.

This is also true. Kaepernick is an absolute hero, and one of the most talented quarterbacks the NFL has had in recent years (which is, I'm sad to say, more than can be said for Gina, who is not really a very good actor at all) - but he never worked again after taking the knee.

But I still reckon that sacking someone for talking shite (as opposed to incitement to actual violence, or saying offensive things to specific individuals) is out of order. And I would apply this equally to people on either side of the political divide.

(Also there is a list longer than your arm of male actors who have said deeply offensive thing - about women, Jewish people, ethnic minorities, gay people - who keep their jobs with not a peep out of the twittersphere. The double standards are shocking. Woman or ethnic minority - we will hang you out to dry. White male - say what the fuck you like, no-one's going to take action.)

Funny how it's only 'cancel culture' when it happens to Republicans. I don't see any of them sticking up for Colin Kaepernick.
Yup, its only cancel culture if it involves right-wing beliefs, or accusations of sexual misconduct against a man.

The left literally call their opponents Nazis every single day. It's practically their only comeback. What's the difference? None, except it's ok when it come out the mouths of one side of the political spectrum and not the other.
Any of you who thinks anybody should lose their job for something like this needs a long hard look at themselves. It'll come knocking for you one day soon too.

It is called consequences. If you post rubbish equating the dispensation of justice to a bunch of things trying to disrupt democracy with the mass murder of Jews then you shouldn't expect people to want to associate with you.

The left literally call their opponents Nazis every single day. It's practically their only comeback.

Only the ones who are actual literal Nazis.

The things the right say about everyone else is a thousand times worse.

They've been gunning for her for a while, and I don't think that Tweet meant what people who wanted her gone wanted it to mean. While the writing was probably on the wall for her, I wish Disney had left their statement to the first paragraph. Wading in on policing her views has left her open to abuse.

@nearlythere1

The problem is that centrist like me are called commies and 'leftists' by the very people you are defending. If you are that right wing that you think that centre-left people are communists, where exactly does that put you on the political spectrum? Combine that with overtly anti-Semitic and racist rhetoric and, well, if it quacks like a duck...

We also get the same abuse from the real commies btw and they are just as dangerous as the fascists, but they are not in the ascendancy at the moment.

There is no cancel culture. Only people in very privileged positions who believe in their own hype so much that they think they can spout nasty and discriminatory nonsense in public and get away with it finding out they can't.

It is called consequences. If you post rubbish equating the dispensation of justice to a bunch of things trying to disrupt democracy with the mass murder of Jews then you shouldn't expect people to want to associate with you.

Her professional activities are not ‘association’ in that sense. My boss doesn’t have to like me. As long as I don’t break any laws or legal policies (in an objectively provable manner) though 🤷🏻‍♀️

@BraveBananaBadge

They've been gunning for her for a while, and I don't think that Tweet meant what people who wanted her gone wanted it to mean. While the writing was probably on the wall for her, I wish Disney had left their statement to the first paragraph. Wading in on policing her views has left her open to abuse.

I also suspect there may have been an element of "Oh fuck it, might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb" from Carano - she has been goading where she could have kept her head down. (As someone said upthread, she still has a future in straight-to-streaming action movies/series, so long term it probably won't do her career terminal damage, though she won't get a gig as high profile as this one again.)

While repeating, once more for the avoidance of doubt, that I find her views abhorrent, I still think it's wrong to remove someone's job for their political views.

And those saying "well it's not cancel culture, it's consequence culture, and obnoxious right wingers bring it on themselves" - do reflect on this:
Gavin Haynes on purity spirals

(Incidentally Haynes has impeccable non-right-wing credentials - this material was a R4 documentary and he writes for Vice.)

Don't think it's only right-wingers who get cancelled - the left cancels its own given half a chance (one of the reasons I am no longer a member of the Labour Party - there was stuff under Corbyn I just didn't want to be associated with). You may be railing against Carano (understandably) today, but don't be so sure that your own views won't get you into hot water one day. That's why defending free speech - even the batshit, horrible varieties of free speech - matters. Because it's not just about your enemies, it's about you too.

The only people really safe from cancel culture are, ironically, wealthy, powerful (and usually right-wing), white men.

Can I just say, to each and every poster contributing on this page thread, thank you!! I haven't been able to go down to the pub and have a good debate with friends for nearly a year. I'm sitting here drinking a glass of wine and I'm thoroughly enjoying this healthy and mutually respectful debate! I love a good barney and this is a great one! I'm completely open to having my opinion challenged here, people are expressing different views and I'm taking it all in. Thank you and Please carry on, 🍷🍷

CaraDuneRedux
From your post, you'd think only the left tries to 'cancel' people/organizations. The right do the same. Trump seemed to spend at least as much time demanding 'cancellations' of his critics as he did railing against 'cancel culture'.

Caraduneredux bravo! Your next pint is on me 🍻

That said, I hear you re. purity spirals on the left.

Saying that these are just the "consequences" is a total cop out. Its the people and organisations involved who decide what the consequences are.

The consequences could be that Disney says that its employees personal are not of any of its, or the consequence could be that Carano is made to apologise but keeps her job. There is nothing set in stone about this particular set of consequences.

@Zevia

CaraDuneRedux From your post, you'd think only the left tries to 'cancel' people/organizations. The right do the same. Trump seemed to spend at least as much time demanding 'cancellations' of his critics as he did railing against 'cancel culture'.

A few posts earlier (fast moving thread, I grant) I also agreed whole-heartedly with the poster who mentioned Colin Kaepernick' s cancellation by the NFL at the behest of right wingers, so, no, it certainly isn't just a left wing thing.

Kaepernick (who is an absolute hero IMO) has never played again, despite being one of the most talented quarterbacks of his generation.

@Margotshypotheticaldog

Can I just say, to each and every poster contributing on this page thread, thank you!! I haven't been able to go down to the pub and have a good debate with friends for nearly a year. I'm sitting here drinking a glass of wine and I'm thoroughly enjoying this healthy and mutually respectful debate! I love a good barney and this is a great one! I'm completely open to having my opinion challenged here, people are expressing different views and I'm taking it all in. Thank you and Please carry on, 🍷🍷

I'll stand a round in our virtual pub and toast to that!

I highly doubt if she were to get down on her knees and apologise, announce her pronouns etc that she'd come back. Women don't get that. She can learn as much as she likes, it will make eff all difference. Yes, she can go back to MMA, that's if she isn't twitter hounded off that too. There is some element online that will keep going and going.

It's why you have ordinary women being reported to their mundane jobs for wrong think, academics booted off talks they were previously booked on, bookstores apologising for hosting a feminist years ago when a new speaker whined about it, Target removing a book from their stock on the say so of one randomers tweet (they since reversed that decision), another company unfollowing someone which is no big thing in the grand scheme of things, but off the back of a single tweet off random man with about 20 followers, just because he said she was transphobic. His say so, no one else, and that was enough for the follow chop. Then another man tried to report her to another company on his coat tails.

These people are absolutely spitting mad they can't take down JK Rowling in a similar manner.

Just to reiterate, I could see the point Gina was making, but she did it in a bad way, and Disney can hire and fire who they like. The double standard of a lefty man and half of twitter also making nazi and holocaust comparisons with absolutely no comeback whatsoever sticks in my craw.

Thinking more about the left-wing versus right-wing forms of cancel culture - my rule of thumb is always "what would this employment policy/ employment legislation/ legislation round permissible speech enable people to do to me if - instead of it being nice people who share my views policing the policies - it was instead my worst political enemies who were in power?"

And the interesting thing is we know what it looks like - and it was the right-wing "cancel culture" (an anachronistic term) that was the McCarthy hearings, which led to a whole generation of left-wing Americans being hounded out of employment (from actors and scriptwriters all the way down to the seamstresses who made the costumes).

Which is ultimately why I'll even defend right wing crazies, if all they're doing is espousing batshit ideas, rather than making actual calls to violence.

Oh what do you know. Less than 48 hours after Star Wars announced they weren't going to give her a new job, Gina has announced that she's been given a movie deal to produce and star in a new film, financed and supported by a powerful conservative/right wing media tycoon.

Tell me more about how she's been "cancelled" by "the mob", had "absolutely everything taken away from her" and has no hope of ever working again ever with "no way back, no chance to redeem herself"?

she compared being a republican to being a Jew in nazi Germany.

My old dog walker compared his treatment by the HMRC to how nazis treated Jews. I didn’t use him again.

I don’t want people throwing that shit around. No one should do it and no one should stand for it.

She got sacked because her publicly aired views were antisemitic and vile.

I actually don’t mind cancel culture when it’s appropriate - someone can’t be cancelled when they’re not really wrong. A short media shitfest by the wokes doesn’t end a decent career. JK Rowling isn’t cancelled is she let’s be honest, she’s not out of work.

Marilyn mason - yeah he is cancelled because apparently it’s quite a well known fact that he’s a predator and abuser. Couldn’t give a shit if he never works again.

JK Rowling isn't cancelled because she's seriously rich. That what makes her untouchable. Plenty of other people who don't think twaw have had work cancelled and careers ruined.
Who gets to decide which voices are heard? Who gets to keep their job? It's a dangerous path to go down - you never know when your own opinion will be deemed 'wrong'.