To insist on vaccinated carers

[Oblahdeeoblahdoe]

One of the carers who goes into my elderly mum has refused the vaccine (she told mum) I'm really annoyed and want to request to the management that she doesn't attend to mum anymore. I feel if she wants to do this job she should have the vaccine in order to protect her clients. I know there's no proof yet it will protect against transmission on but most scientists believe it will. AIBU?

@Oblahdeeoblahdoe

One of the carers who goes into my elderly mum has refused the vaccine (she told mum) I'm really annoyed and want to request to the management that she doesn't attend to mum anymore. I feel if she wants to do this job she should have the vaccine in order to protect her clients. I know there's no proof yet it will protect against transmission on but most scientists believe it will. AIBU?

You do realise having the vaccine doesn't stop you spreading the virus? All the vaccine does is reduces the risk of the recipient suffering serious symptoms of the virus. So it's irrelevant if the carer has the vaccine, the most important person in this circumstance is your mum. The carer having not having the vaccine won't make your mum anymore vulnerable...

And if because everyone has requested the same there is no carer to care for your mum available then what would you do?
Leave your mum to it? Or compromise? And changing the care company doesnt make a difference because the vaccinated carers already have people to care for. Would you then change your mind or do the caring yourself?

All carers should have it unless a real medical condition stops them In fact all people

YABU. It wouldn't stop them spreading the virus anyway. If anything it's worse as they wouldn't have the symptoms to warn them they had it.

People saying that staff can't be sacked/redeployed for refusing the vaccine as it would be discrimination, are missing the fact that being anti-vax isn't a protected characteristic under the equality act. Employers could very easily sack anyone who's been employed with them for less than 2 years, and quite possibly sack others, although that's more open to challenge.
Unless the vaccine refusal was directly due to pregnancy or disability (covered by the equality act), then you can't claim discrimination if you're sacked for not getting vaccinated

I imagine you're paying for this service? You can certainly lay down conditions. You're not the employer, you're the client. (But they might leave you in the lurch if they're short-staffed.)

@MumOfPsuedoAdult

Would you have asked the carer if they'd had the flu vaccination pre-Covid? I think we're going down a slippery slope if people's personal medical information is now openly accessible for all to know about.

It doesn't have to be openly accessible though, if the care home requires it it is confidential as part of their employment and they simply doesn't assign that carer to the patient that has requested a vaccinated person. Although we don't have a mandatory vaccine law in the UK yet, some vaccinations are mandatory for travelling to certain countries like Saudi Arabia, and in some (all?) US states some of the childhood vaccinations are required to attend state school - do you think that is unnecessary too? I mean, they can choose not to homeschool or choose not to travel if they haven't had it. In this case the carer could choose to work elsewhere, on a different patient or worst case scenario do a different job. I'm sure someone will say it's unfair but not everyone can be in their dream job sadly. I was disqualified from my dream military role due to medical reasons! I'm not particularly convinced on either side of this but I don't understand this view. Vaccinations are required across the world for lots of things (there are of course medical and religious exemptions).

You do realise having the vaccine doesn't stop you spreading the virus? All the vaccine does is reduces the risk of the recipient suffering serious symptoms of the virus
So it's irrelevant if the carer has the vaccine, the most important person in this circumstance is your mum. The carer having not having the vaccine won't make your mum anymore vulnerable...

@TH22 you are wrong. It is almost certain that all the vaccines will dramatically lower the chance of transmission. But the data isn't all in yet, and so no-one is prepared to say that for definite. The govt is (probably rightly) using that to help them in their bid to make sure that people continue to follow the rules and guidance even when they're vaccinated, at least until everyone has had the chance to be vaccinated.

"Im a carer and I will leave if I am continually pressured into having an unlicensed experimental vaccine, and many others will too."

Disgraceful to risk lives when you're being offered a safe, rigorously tested vaccine IMO.

The NCA is already talking about changing contracts for new employees.

There’s a balance to be had. Protecting the individual being cared for from the risk of CV19 vs the right of any individual to choose their right to have a vaccine.

Multiple reasons why people are refusing - fertility issues, wanting to wait and see whether any of the vaccines have as yet undiscovered issues; allergies; general mistrust over government sponsored medical rollouts (especially for example in Eastern European communities), foreign born or first generation UK workers looking to see what their country of origin’s stance is on vaccination etc etc. And then those that believe the “conspiracy theories”. I think it’s important to remember no matter what people believe it’s their right to choose what they do, even if you don’t agree with it.

As it stands I don’t think any major care provider has come out and said you need to have the vaccine or you have no job. I’d imagine that would create a ton of legal issues that no one has time / resource for ATM

OP - by all means request a diff cater, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they say they can’t disclose individuals medical vaccination status to you, although they probably will swap that specific carer. I doubt they’d make any sort of guarantee to you going forward re making sure your mum has a vaccinated carer at all times.

The NCA is consulting at the moment regarding whether providers can make vaccinations mandatory for existing staff.

@Shelby2010

The company that employs the care workers are being paid either by your DM or via social care. I would tell the head office that you will take your money elsewhere if they can’t supply vaccinated carers.

As with other pp, I was required to be vaccinated against Hep B when I worked in an NHS hospital. In the midst of a global pandemic I can’t believe people are refusing the vaccine based on conspiracy theories. Everyone I know has been desperate to get it.

I’ve worked for the NHS all my working years....50s now.....never once has a vaccine ( including hep B ) been forced on me..I’ve had it ....I’ve had all my vaccines ......Ive had the Covid vaccine.... occupational health may have frowned on hep b refusers and said that they are putting staff and patients at risk .... but never forced them to have it

Certain care homes have talked about keeping visiting restrictions in place beyond national relaxations to protect unvaccinated staff . Which if unvaccinated by choice is infuriating when residents have suffered so much isolation.

@katy1213

I imagine you're paying for this service? You can certainly lay down conditions. You're not the employer, you're the client. (But they might leave you in the lurch if they're short-staffed.)

You can’t lay down conditions that break employment law🤔

Discrimination is mostly not an issue here. Being an anti-vaxxer is not a protected characteristic unless it’s due to an actual religion.

Not being able to have the currently available vaccines due to a history of anaphylaxis or pregnancy would be a protected characteristic though even then might not always trump health and safety. Encroaching blindness is a disability but could still get you sacked from a job as a bus driver.

And can all the people still stating as fact “the vaccine only stops you getting sick it doesn’t stop you passing on the disease” please catch up?

@jasjas1973

No one is saying we must have vaccinated nurses/surgeons/porters or GPs ?

Are they not?

I’m an ICU dr. It’s a requirement of my workplace that I’m fully vaccinated including with seasonal vaccines like influenza. When the vaccine is rolled out in my state, it will also be a requirement.

I can decline to be vaccinated - although of course I would not - but I cannot come to work if I do so.

I work in care and in my company approximately 80% of staff have now had the 1st vaccine (which is a higher take up than we expected). Approximately another 10% have what is (in my opinion) a good reason not to - ie medically not advised / pregnant etc. I would say less than 10% have refused it on other grounds. Whilst we cannot make it a condition of employment, we have had a few clients who have requested vaccinated staff only and we will accommodate this as we feel it is an understandable and reasonable request. Whilst we obviously would never divulge medical information to the clients about staff members, we would agree to only send in staff who we knew to have been vaccinated. We have a pretty good idea who has had it as we made all the bookings on behalf of our staff.
I suppose if lots of clients began to request vaccinated only and staff who had refused the vaccine found that they had very little work, they could try to bring a legal challenge for discrimination. However there is also the risk that if we ignored a request like this from a client and an unvaccinated carer passed on COVID, they could try to argue we had failed on our duty of care to them. There is a lot of unknown territory here for everyone.
It is common for clients to specify that they don’t want male / female carers and the equality act allows this as long as they have a good enough reason for making this request - the fact that personal care is involved is enough to satisfy this. Therefore I’m not sure why the same thinking couldn’t apply to wanting vaccinated carers who would pose less risk.

I also find it a bit concerning that people on this thread keep referring to an ‘experimental’ vaccine. The Covid vaccines being given in the uk are fully licensed and approved and have been subject to more rigorous testing than many other vaccines that we have been happy to accept.

It is also not true that the vaccine doesn’t stop spread. They were initially reluctant to say that it did as there was a lack of evidence but recent studies have suggested that the vaccine does significantly reduce rates of transmission as well as preventing the individual from getting seriously ill.

@AnnabelleMarx. am assuming you live out of the UK....as this is not the case here

AnnabelleMarx

It varies by trust. Ours is a non-madetory vaccination trust. Same as some trusts have mandatory HIV testing and some have mandatory drug testing.

The fact that so many people in the medical field are refusing this vaccine tells you everything
^
Nothing factual about this. There is no evidence to support this statement because it's complete BS.

@JamieFrasersAuntie

I think it should be mandatory in certain professions. It can't be right that eight care home residents have covid, caught from carers who refused the vaccine and are presumably bringing it in while asymptomatic. I think carers have had a lot of support from the public over the past year, but could undo all of that now. They are risking lives for, in this case, daft reasons, according to the reasons they themselves have openly shared

Im a carer and I will leave if I am continually pressured into having an unlicensed experimental vaccine, and many others will too.

I’m sure you would, but that’s not what this vaccine is.

Are you able to run us through your objections based on your understanding of the evidence to date? In what way would you have designed the trials differently?

Can you also just quickly run us through how pharmaceutical products are usually tested, developed and regulated? What do you see as the key deficiencies in this regard with the current Oxford Group vaccine? Compared, say, to an established vaccine like those for varicella or pertussis?

These questions will be very easy for you to answer quickly as you certainly understand the matter in-depth.

It is also not true that the vaccine doesn’t stop spread.

No it isn't. It's looking more likely that following the full dose (2 vaccines) spreads significantly limited but it's by no means definite and very, very few people have had both vaccines and most won't until May.

Disgraceful to risk lives when you're being offered a safe, rigorously tested vaccine IMO

Rigorously tested?

As far as I'm aware this vaccine is unliscenced and the trial will be going on for several years. You obviously know something that neither me or Pfizer know because I have scoured their documents intensely looking for long term safety data about trials with people with multiple sclerosis.

I can't find it so please can you send me the information you have? While you're at it, send it to Pfizer too.

Maybe there is no requirement for anyone to be vaccinated against flu or Hep B, etc. - but neither of those conditions brought the entire world to a standstill!

[quote Kitkat151]@AnnabelleMarx. am assuming you live out of the UK....as this is not the case here[/quote]
Well yes I live somewhere with states.....this would be your first clue.

I also work in ICU which is typically a very different environment to wards or community based care. We’ve been dealing with high risk aerosolising procedures exposing us to potentially fatal respiratory illnesses for decades. The PPE wasn’t new for me.