To insist on vaccinated carers

[Oblahdeeoblahdoe]

One of the carers who goes into my elderly mum has refused the vaccine (she told mum) I'm really annoyed and want to request to the management that she doesn't attend to mum anymore. I feel if she wants to do this job she should have the vaccine in order to protect her clients. I know there's no proof yet it will protect against transmission on but most scientists believe it will. AIBU?

No idea how many is enough. It’s above my pay grade.

@VinylDetective

Some people also want to prevent transmission believe it or not. Not everybody only considers themselves

For the third time - please read carefully - there is no agreement that the current vaccinations prevent transmission. Have you got it this time?

And most people do only consider themselves. Like OP’s mum who was happy to accept care from someone unvaccinated for ten months but is now throwing her toys out of her pram.

There is agreement that they probably will reduce transmission because that is what vaccines normally do. Given that the main aim of the vaccination at the moment is to reduce deaths, why do you think that NHS and care home workers are priority vaccination regardless of their personal risk of severe disease if it is not to reduce transmission?.

And most people do only consider themselves. Like OP’s mum who was happy to accept care from someone unvaccinated for ten months but is now throwing her toys out of her pram.

How do you know she was happy? She didn't necessarily have a choice before vaccines existed but she was probably very unhappy about it. Now she might have a choice so why shouldn't she try to exercise it?

I work for a mid size health care employer - half community, half residential. We've has several invitations from the big HR providers example below that hit my inbox earlier - (cut and paste directly )

.I just wanted to drop you a quick message to remind you about our upcoming webinar ‘Vaccination against COVID-19: Employer considerations’.
It takes place this Thursday (11th February 2021) at 1:30pm and helps you get to grips with the COVID-19 vaccine roll-out and what it means for your business. In it, we’ll explain:
• How to approach staff about vaccinations in the workplace.
• Whether you can encourage staff to take the vaccine or even make it mandatory.
• What you should do if an employee refuses to take the vaccine.
• How to write a vaccination policy for your business.
The webinar is completely free for you to attend. (End cut and paste)

Agency workers already have to provide a immunisation history (including Hep B and TB) prior to registration to work in lots of clinical environments. In community, we have some packages (Immuno suppressed, high risk respiratory illness, ventilated) where we insist on evidence of annual flu vaccines to mitigate risk.

There's certainly a view that new starters might be mandated to have the Covid vaccine and that current employees might have restrictions on their assignments depending on risk assessment.

I'm involved with several domiciliary and Registered Managers forums and whilst there is certainly a fear of breaching employment legislation, there is an increased pressure from commissioners,case managers and families to clarify vaccination policies.

Those of us in care with long memories might remember that care staff didn't used to have a mandatory police record check or indeed be regulated. The industry has always had respond to societal and legislative change and I feel that employers will be driven by social pressure to review vaccination policy very shortly.

The last couple of weeks we have had a significant upturn in staff engaging in the vaccination programme. We track and record who has had and dates of the second.

Obviously we couldnt disclose vaccination records outside of the organisation- but if a community service user or family insisted on not having unvaccinated staff or having that incorporated into their care plan despite risk minimization through robust PPE practice - I suspect we would have to comply

@DWPmisery1972 I work in a hospital and my own grandmother is in a care home (able to wipe her own backside) and a good carer is worth gold. Making the people you care for feel worthy and valued when they are in need of help is a skill not everyone has. Caring is exhausting because it’s physical and emotionally draining too. The salary for a job doesn’t equate to a person’s worth in this world and the impact they have of others.

Sorry @Kitkat151 my response to you was only that some people have understandably refused the vaccine - the end part wasnt relevant to your post. Sorry I should have clarified that! My apologies.

@lordalmighty no worries !
I know a good few who have declined too, mainly my daughters friends ..... but I don’t class these people as anti vaxxers... they are vaccine hesitant as they are worried....I certainly don’t judge them.

There have been suggestions that employers could compel staff to be vaccinated as a "reasonable precaution" under the Health and Safety At Work Act. How could they enforce it though when there's currently no system for proving that you've had it?

JamieFrasersAuntie
"nobody can be forced to have an experimental vaccine. Ever. Under any circumstances."

It's not an experimental vaccine ?

@Snowrabbit

I think in the absence of a clear medical reason not to get the jab, it's really irresponsible not to. Mainly its ill-educated people with notions that are not based on anything but rumour and internet nonsense. I think we should stop the understanding and gentle encouragement and make people realise that it's irresponsible - same as those who refuse to wear masks or socially distance. It should be taboo to say no to it if your doctor doesn't have a good reason for you not to get it. I would feel exactly the same as you - YANBU

You sound really tiresome. I've had the vaccine (I'm ill educated) but I do know some more worthy educated souls with lots of diplomas and degrees who are apprehensive about it.

People have a right to autonomy over their own bodies and what is injected into them. They are new vaccines that have been developed extremely fast with limited data regarding the long term effects or efficacy. People have a right to take pause and it doesn't automatically make them raving anti-vax conspiracist lunatics

@DdraigGoch

There have been suggestions that employers could compel staff to be vaccinated as a "reasonable precaution" under the Health and Safety At Work Act. How could they enforce it though when there's currently no system for proving that you've had it?

They are keeping records of who has received it and people are given a card and told to keep it as proof. They need to do this anyway to know when to give a second vaccine and which want to give. Agency workers and zero hours contract workers could be asked to provide evidence straightaway. The poster above says they are already asked to provide evidence of other vaccinations.

People have a right to autonomy over their own bodies and what is injected into them. absolutely.
Also agree with the posters who have said how undervalued carers are and they do so much more than wipe up piss and shit! It annoys me how people seem to forget that carers are people too and act like they are merely a commodity. I remember a thread early on in which if I recall correctly someone was seriously thinking it was acceptable to expect carers to completely isolate from all aspects of life and family and just to work!

How do you employ the carers? If your employing them yourself I would definitely only hire those vaccinated, it’s what I plan to do

Could only employing people who are vaccinated be seen as discrimination? Bearing in mind that some people can't get vaccinated due to allergies or other medical reasons. And women who are pregnant, beastfeeding or planning to become pregnant are advised against vaccination.
Should a woman have to tell a potential employer that she has not got the vaccine because she is trying to start a family? It seems a legal minefield to me.

Just to add, my SIL is a community psychiatric nurse. She visits dementia patients in their homes. She is also 14 weeks pregnant, so has not been vaccinated, and wont be until she has finished breastfeeding. Should she not work for the next year and a half? Her maternity leave will be about six months, but that still leaves a year during which she would have expected to work. And I would imagine the demand for mental health workers will be huge in the months ahead.

@spicedlatte there is nothing wrong being apprehensive. However, critical thinking skills would, on balance, lead someone to realise that all scientific consensus is to get the vaccine in the absence of medical advice otherwise. Can you point me to any medical or scientific body (or even individual!) saying the vaccine is not safe or that it's wise not to get it? It's not the brightest idea for those who are completely ignorant of medical science to think they know best or worse, like you are doing, suggesting that it's absolutely reasonable to ignore all medical evidence and make up your own mind. People can make their own choices but by and large, people with brains will realise that it's best to listen to actual experts, not their own ill-informed fears. And if people do want to make their own choices, against all medical evidence, perhaps they aren't suited to working with the most vulnerable, with their own ignorance putting such people at risk. Obviously there are people who would be reasonable not to take the vaccine because of their own medical circumstances (based on medical advice or the general advice given with the vaccine - e.g. pregnant women) but outside these categories, it would be nuts for society to accept that the ignorant are ok to live in ill-informed bliss, doing what they like,whilst putting others at risk.

@Snowrabbit I agree for all those reasons hence why I've had it, I can just also empathise with those who aren't sure about it. I believe in vaccines and think people should have them, but I would never want to be part of a society that forces people to have a vaccine against their will, it seems positively dystopian.

As others have pointed out there is no evidence whatsoever that it prevents people from passing covid on to others, only that is protects the person who has had it from becoming ill; so the whole point about these blissfully uninformed, evil, covid giving, unvaccinated carers seems moot anyway.

YABU, massively.

@Spicedlatte I didn't say that people should be forced to have vaccines - I said it should be seen as an unacceptable way to behave - like not wearing a mask.

As for your assertion that there is "no evidence whatsoever" on transmission - early indicators are that it does affect transmission www.bbc.com/news/uk-55913913. We can't know much as it's too early but the view of experts is that it is definitely likely to have an effect on transmission and time will tell. See also last paragraph of this article www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/vaccine-coronavirus-reducing-spread-effective-b1787949.html You are very hostile and bizarrely defensive - and wrong. Perhaps some time reading reliable sources would serve you well. The problem is loads of people are really ignorant and their ill-conceived notions and opinions should not be seen as reasonable and acceptable (they often tend to be rude and get the wrong end of the stick on everything too )

Have you considered what would happen if everyone was ignorant enough to decline the vaccine? How exactly would we solve this crisis? Thankfully most people will be sensible. Shame others let everyone else down.

I believe in vaccines. I do my research on any vaccine offered to me or my children so I'm clear about what is being injected. I've never had a concern and have no concerns about the Covid vaccine.

However ....... While I believe in vaccines I also believe in autonomy and people being able to choose what is injected into them. No one should feel forced to have any vaccine. There are lots of reasons why someone would choose not to have the vaccine ... Pregnancy, planning to conceive in the next few months, allergy to ingredients, extreme phobia of needles, not having all the right information about the vaccine. At the end of the day this vaccine is not mandatory at this stage and no one should be penalised or treated differently if they don't have it.

Carers do the most vital intimate jobs for very little money and rewards and a good carer is hard to replace. Carers have been working long unsocial hours throughout this pandemic and now it seems people are quick to turn on them if they don't get the vaccine.

How would you feel if your DM couldn't get the vaccine for some reason and carers refused to attend to her!

Vaccines are being rolled out and offered. The key word at this time ..... Offered.

That said I've had mine and would of course encourage others to choose to have theirs. Encourage not stamp my feet and demand.

@TooMuchYarn

Could only employing people who are vaccinated be seen as discrimination? Bearing in mind that some people can't get vaccinated due to allergies or other medical reasons. And women who are pregnant, beastfeeding or planning to become pregnant are advised against vaccination. Should a woman have to tell a potential employer that she has not got the vaccine because she is trying to start a family? It seems a legal minefield to me.

I think if somebody couldn't be vaccinated for a genuine medical reason then they perhaps would have a case as an employment tribunal. If you were pregnant they would perhaps have to redeploy you somewhere else until you are no longer pregnant.

@TooMuchYarn

Just to add, my SIL is a community psychiatric nurse. She visits dementia patients in their homes. She is also 14 weeks pregnant, so has not been vaccinated, and wont be until she has finished breastfeeding. Should she not work for the next year and a half? Her maternity leave will be about six months, but that still leaves a year during which she would have expected to work. And I would imagine the demand for mental health workers will be huge in the months ahead.

I appreciate that her job is important to her that people's lives are important to them too. They would perhaps need to redeploy so that she only looks after patients who aren't vulnerable.

However ....... While I believe in vaccines I also believe in autonomy and people being able to choose what is injected into them. No one should feel forced to have any vaccine. There are lots of reasons why someone would choose not to have the vaccine ... Pregnancy, planning to conceive in the next few months, allergy to ingredients, extreme phobia of needles, not having all the right information about the vaccine. At the end of the day this vaccine is not mandatory at this stage and no one should be penalised or treated differently if they don't have it.

You say that people shouldn't feel forced have a vaccine but at the same time people shouldn't feel forced to be in close contact with someone who isn't vaccinated if they are vulnerable. People who are vulnerable shouldn't they have to risk getting severe Covid in order to receive medical care.

The risk will be low if the DM is vaccinated and PPE and infection control is followed.

Like I said it could work both ways ... What if carers refused to attend to patients who weren't vaccinated?