To ask if you have a child who identifies as trans or expresses disconnect between their gender and sex?

[Scroremanga]

I remember a post which asked how many people on mumsnet felt a disconnect between their gender and sex. Out of 1000 respondents, 10 per cent said they did.

How about people are aware their child or children feel that their gender and sex are disconnected?

Yabu-I am pretty sure my child feels aligned with their sex and gender

Yanbu - my child expresses that they are do not feel

It would also be helpful whether to know whether ds or dd thats experiencing this

Thanks

If somebody would have offered me, as a v gnc teen girl when young, puberty blockers and mastectomy I would have jumped at it. I would have been head first down the rabbit hole, because I would have done anything to not be a girl

This is what is alarming to me as well. I feel like most people on here know someone, maybe their own daughter or a friend of their child, who is at risk of contributing to the 4000% increase in adolescent girls wishing to “transition” to boys. Lots of women here have described hating female puberty (personally, I didn’t mind) and how they would have jumped at the chance not to go through it.

The males who are posting on this thread will never have an appreciation of why so many girls are trying to opt out of womanhood but many adult women “get it”.

There are so many girls who may be vulnerable to this - girls with ASD who already feel like they don’t “fit in”, girls struggling with their same-sex attractions, girls who don’t fit in with that Instagram-perfect, ultra-stylised version of girlhood that they see on social media. It’s laughable for those without teenage girls to discount the effects of social media on teenage discontent. My 14 year old daughter’s classmates post pictures of themselves in dance gear, swim suits with pouts and boobs and bums out.

The space for girls who aren’t like that - once occupied by goths, emos etc - is now, on line at least, the trans/non-binary route.
And sex must seem terrifying - normalisation of porn-based practices with choking, anal and boys basing their ideas of what sex is like, and what women like, from porn.

If being trans for girls just meant a few piercings then it wouldn’t be so worrying. But hormones and body modifications serve girls and women poorly. With the recently published U.K. study confiding decreased bone density and decreased height for children on puberty blockers girls who go through hormonal modification will have permanent physical effects. They will end up shorter than their potential with weaker bones and the testosterone may result in permanent facial/body hair and voice changes.

Women recognise that for many of these girls their dysphoria is aversion and avoidance of the womanhood they see in society. And we get it and we understand why. And we worry about them and want to steer them away from decisions made as children that will effect growth, bone density, sexual function, the ability to breastfeed and their intimate relationships.

@HoneysuckIejasmine

No plans or wishes to be male, but females apparently get a "bad deal" so they don't want to be either.

This is my problem with gender. Yes, it's fucking shit. You can deal with it by fighting against gender, or you can claim "I'm not like other girls" and be non binary. I wish everyone who felt that gender means we get a raw deal would help try to dismantle it, rather than reinforcing it by declaring non-binary and therefore all other females who aren't non-binary must be absolutely a ok fine with being stereotyped and pigeonholed.

I know this is often not what people intend, they are dealing with things their own way, but it's the result.

Sadly a lot of these natal females will realise that post puberty, the world will see them and treat them as a woman no matter how they identify.

Absolutely this - which of us didn’t feel awful during puberty/teenage years due to society’s expectations/misogyny/male gaze? I grew breasts aged 9, didn’t really come to terms with having them until I was about 17.

Pretending that some women can opt out of sex-based oppression and act like the rest of us must be happy with it is part of the problem, not the solution.

@LastRoloIsMine

jj1968

There are only two sexes! Sex is a binary not a spectrum! Gender identity doesn't exist! YOU MUST NOT TALK ABOUT INTERSEX PEOPLE!!!.

Actually thats a lie.
GC people I follow on SM include intersex people who are passionate about fighting for understanding about their health conditions. GC people amplify their voices. It is the trans movement that seek to silence intersex people and shut them down because their reality shows just hoe FALSE the trans ideology is.

Then I look forward to you amplifying obe of their key demands which was agreed at international level by pretty much every intersex organisation in the world. I shall reproduce it for your convenience:

To ensure that sex or gender classifications are amendable through a simple administrative procedure at the request of the individuals concerned. All adults and capable minors should be able to choose between female (F), male (M), non-binary or multiple options. In the future, as with race or religion, sex or gender should not be a category on birth certificates or identification documents for anybody.

oiieurope.org/malta-declaration/

jj1968

Transpeople are not intersex.
You align yourself with people who suffer a medical condition in a bid to push your own agenda.
Intersex babies whos sex is ambiguous should not have surgery simply off the back off what a Dr believes. They should be allowed to develop naturally and choose their own path if they want to.

Transpeople jump on the "intersex" bandwagon only to further their own cause. That to me is disgusting.

@LastRoloIsMine

Around one in 200,000 young people are proscribed puberty blockers annually.

What is the age range of those 200,000 young people? Are they prescribed it for precocious puberty or for dysphoria?

not 200,000. 1 in 200,000, as in for every 200,000 under 18s just one was proscribed puberty blockers for gender dysphoria. 161 kids, the vast majority 15 and over.

I don't know how many kids have been proscribed blockers for precocious puberty, I'm not sure there's any published figures for the UK. It's a huge amount in the states though where Lupron was routinely used for many years to block puberty to allow small kids to grow taller although that is no longer common practice.

Women recognise that for many of these girls their dysphoria is aversion and avoidance of the womanhood they see in society. And we get it and we understand why. And we worry about them and want to steer them away from decisions made as children that will effect growth, bone density, sexual function, the ability to breastfeed and their intimate relationships.

Whereas those of us parenting trans kids don't care at all. Thank fuck for strangers on the internet who are self proclaimed experts 'caring' about our kids.

I pour my dc a bowl of puberty blockers for breakfast every morning, and we put on videos of operations to have a little chuckle over how funny they are before we have a good old chinwag about how they will be alone forever and never be able to have sex. Good Times

Its easy to be a perfect parent in an impossible situation, if you aren't actually in the situation I guess.

@LastRoloIsMine

jj1968

Transpeople are not intersex.
You align yourself with people who suffer a medical condition in a bid to push your own agenda.
Intersex babies whos sex is ambiguous should not have surgery simply off the back off what a Dr believes. They should be allowed to develop naturally and choose their own path if they want to.

Transpeople jump on the "intersex" bandwagon only to further their own cause. That to me is disgusting.

I'm not aligning myself with anyone. I was merely pointing out one of the reasons scientists started to take an interest in the possibility of a biological basis for gender identity.

@LastRoloIsMine

But yes, I see a lot of arrogance on this thread and a lot of presumptions. Which are, ironically, pretty small-minded.

Its not arrogance in the most part or small mindedness.
You wouldn't agree an anorexic is fat just because they are convinced they are would you? You wouldn't tell them medication that will alter their lives completely in other ways would make them the weight they want?
When we look at disassociation from ourselves/our bodies there is usually trauma, mental illness , social pressure or all 3 behind whats going on. Dont we owe it to our children to find out whats behind their dysphoria because only then can we support them the best way.

How do you suggest us as parents address the dysphoria? If we send them to counselling or a therapist most of them work from an affirmation perspective. If we talk to them they listen but don't hear. They're so wrapped up in gender identity that they can't see the wood from the trees. I'm just waiting and taking an extremely cautious approach. We all as parents of girls know of the massive increase in girls identifying as trans/non binary. I guarantee any parent of one of these kids will have done their research. We're all just hoping they come out of the other side and can live healthy, happy lives without gender being what defines them. In the meantime I will continue to love and support my daughter, and continue to challenge her thinking when I think it's appropriate.

I was a young girl in care, dressed in boys clothing, shaved my head and opted for my unisex middle name not my very female first name I grew up with. Already in therapy at that point and medicated for Adhd with what was often termed a male presentation of adhd (which is bs, but it’s on my social services records). I think I would have been one of the first they’d push through it.

A couple of years after I got dumped at my dads and had to wear skirts to school and ended up growing my hair long and wearing make up and probably appeared much more feminine outwardly. But when younger and first in care, I was very gnc and so damaged I would have jumped at the chance not to be a girl. Anything to get rid of my girls body and the abuse I got because of it.

Like most women on fwr I’m a mix of lots of gnc aspects and some more commonly associated with feminity. No matter how I’ve appeared outwardly I’ve always just been me and no amount of rejecting female sex rome stereotypes kept me safe from male sexual violence.

alishylishy

I'm just waiting and taking an extremely cautious approach
You really are doing the best you can.
Watchful waiting without 100% affirmation is hopefully the healthy way.

I really do understand know hard it is to be firm and honest when faced with a suicidal child.
My own son cut his throat in front of me at 16 nearly 17. It was thankfully superficial but that will live with me forever. I still had to carry on with him and he "straight" be clear but God it was and is still hard.

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

I tell my kids there are two sexes. No room for nonsense in my home. Be gay if you want, dress how you like but don’t follow some weird ideology that will make you ill.

Good idea! What happens when they're 16 or 17 and come to you saying they think they're trans.... And you say, but surely you'd have expressed it before now, we've been very open about things and always encouraged you to express your individuality.... And they reply that no, that's not the case. They couldn't 'come out' before now because of the many 'microagressions' they've witnessed from you around trans issues in the past?

What is your next step?

I tell my kids there are two sexes. No room for nonsense in my home.

The arrogance.

What would you do if your child said they were trans? Just usher them away and ignore it because enough don't stand nonsense in your home?

You might want to do a bit more research into what its like to have a trans child before thinking you're so superior and would simply say "no" and that would be the end of it.

My 17 year old son came out to me that he was gay age 12 & has in the last few months identified as non binary. It's hard for parents because all the hopes & plans you have for your child's future seem to be gone, I don't know if I will ever have grandchildren as ds is an only one. I worry about him getting hurt as you hear about gay & trans people getting attacked for what they are.

Good to see that there’s no transphobia in mumsnet, as usual 🙄

I don’t get the attitude that how parents raise kids will stop them being trans, because sex role stereotype socialisation is everywhere and it’s insidious.

But shouting down parents who say they’d be firm with their kids if they claimed to be trans?? I don’t think that would be my approach personally, because I have girls with Adhd, asc, pda and gda and gently gently has always been the advised approach from all the professionals involved (of which I was one before I had kids, their disabilities were my area of specialty even before I had them).

But if kids can home and claimed to be trans race like Rachel Dozal I presume the parents raking a hard line approach wouldn’t be shot down. If a white kid comes home and claims to be black surely the obviously correct approach is to haul them up for how insanely insensitive and offensive that is. Trans disabled or trans age would get the same treatment no doubt.

I don’t think it’s reasonable to shout down parents who say they’d take that approach if their son claimed he was a girl.

What age do you think they'd say they felt different from their sex?

From a very young age with all my kids I made it very clear that toys, clothes, colours, occupations, housework etc weren't related to sex. All of them were given the chance and encouraged to try a range of sports and activities from ballet/rugby/football/swimming/cooking etc. I avoided shite like most Disney films or power rangers or Barbie and tried to find stuff that was less stereotypical either way. I do think this has made them less bothered about gender and happy to accept that no matter your sex you can do what you want.

The thing is though if a parent takes a hard line with a child who thinks they're trans, there's a different lovely accepting rainbow family to welcome them.

A child who can get themself to the gp can be referred to someone who is likely to affirm their transness, their school or college will affirm too.
And if the child has scared themself so much with the thought they might be trans and its causing deep anxiety, who does that parent reach out to for help for their child? It's very difficult to find a therapist who is brave enough and switched on enough to explore the wider issues.

I don’t think it’s reasonable to shout down parents who say they’d take that approach if their son claimed he was a girl.

Its entirely reasonable.

The reality is that, unless you have a child who has identified as trans, and you see the hurt, pain and upset your child goes through, you have no clue how you would parent that child.

If you would seriously dismiss your child, who is in severe emotional pain because you 'don't stand for that nonsense' then you're a shit parent, no doubt about it.

Whereas those of us parenting trans kids don't care at all. Thank fuck for strangers on the internet who are self proclaimed experts 'caring' about our kids

No where have I said that parents aren’t caring for their children.

There are so many adult female voices on this thread through, saying that they may have opted out of puberty progression if that had been offered to them. They are worried that, for these girls, choosing hormones and surgery is because they are opting out of what they see as conventional womanhood.
These adult women on this thread who discuss their childhood experiences are not trans.

Although I am not a “self-proclaimed expert” I do work with young people and see increasing number of girls wanting to transition. They are typically anxious girls with ASD who are socially awkward and socially isolated. They all talk about “top surgery” because they read about these terms on the internet.

It is worrying and I do care.

I literally said that wouldn’t be my approach, because that’s not how we approach our girls because of their disabilities anyways.

But I get some others think that way. Parents have responsibility for how their child affects wider society also, not just taking care of their kids feelings. If a white kid came home to their parents claiming they had an innate inner black essence and threatened to kill themselves if the parents didn’t accept them and the parents affirmed and soothed them they’d be ripped to shreds on here for that approach. It would be expected that the parents pull the kid up for being a racist little fucker and all posters here would be saying the kids mh problems are nothing ti do with trans race and get the real issue addressed, not indulge a highly offensive insensitive fantasy.

A boy claiming to be a girl implies that those of us female identity our way into oppression. And that’s just as offensive and misogynistic as trans race is racist. So I get some parents feel they’d approach it with a no nonsense hard line. That isn’t my way my girls disablties are so extreme they were in private psych care age 4 because of nervous breakdown. I don’t spend much time thinking of raising them to be good citizens or good members if society. I probably should now we’ve got through the worse years ( I must be the only parent whose kids suddenly got easy when they hit teens, but we’ve had decade plus of extreme risk prior, haven’t slept through the night in 13 years, one kid didn’t leave my side literally for several years, including needing carried in a sling until age 8, and the other didn’t leave the house for over a year solid at one point, couldn’t even venture into the garden). So my perspective is often odd, but frequently here parents talk about raising kids to be conscientious members of society, to understand not to be racist or misogynistic. And a lot if parents seem to be very no nonsense about many things that relate to that, so I understand they might find the same approach appropriate if their kid came home saying they were trans. They wouldn’t affirm their kids anarexia and support them buying illegal diet pills and be watchful and waiting while their kid does 4 hours at the gym each day. Presumably parents being firm kids have to face reality is a standard part of parenting. I mean fuck mine are extreme and can’t learn the same way many other kids can, but I wouldn’t sit by and let them throw themselves in front of cars age four and bang their head of the road until their bleeding. Just because they were in extreme distress I couldn’t mitigate and felt entirely powerless around didn’t mean I would let them hurt themselves and others. I got hurt a great deal while preventing them be at further risk, and it was unbearable for me, and damaged my relationship with them to some extent, but there’s no way it would have been ok to affirm their wish to run head long into self harm just because of the distress they were in.

MadameButterface

Good to see that there’s no transphobia in mumsnet, as usual

SHUT UP!

Thats not whats happening. Parents are sharing advice on how to manage their complex teens.
I have shared my own story ir my troubled son.

Nobody is hating or fearing trans children we are just trying to understand what is behind their dysphoria.

My dd despises the regressive revisionists trying to stick everybody back into the boxes several generations fought hard to discard. She was born a female, she accepts that, though when her breasts developed she became anxious and begged to wear a binder. She hung out at an LGBT club, when she was desperate to suppress her changing body, and at that time she also said she was bi-sexual. She left the club at the same time as her male friend who had been encouraged to wear fake breasts (padded bra) & change his name to a female one, became disillusioned with the manipulation of identities by the groups leaders (a high % of the children were being guided down a trans path instead of accepting gay feelings).
She now feels a-sexual but there are rational reasons for that retreat. And is glad I refused the binder.

@Scroremanga

I remember a post which asked how many people on mumsnet felt a disconnect between their gender and sex. Out of 1000 respondents, 10 per cent said they did.

How about people are aware their child or children feel that their gender and sex are disconnected?

Yabu-I am pretty sure my child feels aligned with their sex and gender

Yanbu - my child expresses that they are do not feel

It would also be helpful whether to know whether ds or dd thats experiencing this

Thanks

Sex is chronosome expression - 23rd chromosomes are the sex chromosomes.

XX - female
XY - male

Gender is arguably how you feel. But if narrow restrictions were not put on things such as what people wear no-one would need to identify as a certain gender