To ask if you have a child who identifies as trans or expresses disconnect between their gender and sex?

[Scroremanga]

I remember a post which asked how many people on mumsnet felt a disconnect between their gender and sex. Out of 1000 respondents, 10 per cent said they did.

How about people are aware their child or children feel that their gender and sex are disconnected?

Yabu-I am pretty sure my child feels aligned with their sex and gender

Yanbu - my child expresses that they are do not feel

It would also be helpful whether to know whether ds or dd thats experiencing this

Thanks

@nolongersurprised

If somebody would have offered me, as a v gnc teen girl when young, puberty blockers and mastectomy I would have jumped at it. I would have been head first down the rabbit hole, because I would have done anything to not be a girl

This is what is alarming to me as well. I feel like most people on here know someone, maybe their own daughter or a friend of their child, who is at risk of contributing to the 4000% increase in adolescent girls wishing to “transition” to boys. Lots of women here have described hating female puberty (personally, I didn’t mind) and how they would have jumped at the chance not to go through it.

The males who are posting on this thread will never have an appreciation of why so many girls are trying to opt out of womanhood but many adult women “get it”.

There are so many girls who may be vulnerable to this - girls with ASD who already feel like they don’t “fit in”, girls struggling with their same-sex attractions, girls who don’t fit in with that Instagram-perfect, ultra-stylised version of girlhood that they see on social media. It’s laughable for those without teenage girls to discount the effects of social media on teenage discontent. My 14 year old daughter’s classmates post pictures of themselves in dance gear, swim suits with pouts and boobs and bums out.

The space for girls who aren’t like that - once occupied by goths, emos etc - is now, on line at least, the trans/non-binary route.
And sex must seem terrifying - normalisation of porn-based practices with choking, anal and boys basing their ideas of what sex is like, and what women like, from porn.

If being trans for girls just meant a few piercings then it wouldn’t be so worrying. But hormones and body modifications serve girls and women poorly. With the recently published U.K. study confiding decreased bone density and decreased height for children on puberty blockers girls who go through hormonal modification will have permanent physical effects. They will end up shorter than their potential with weaker bones and the testosterone may result in permanent facial/body hair and voice changes.

Women recognise that for many of these girls their dysphoria is aversion and avoidance of the womanhood they see in society. And we get it and we understand why. And we worry about them and want to steer them away from decisions made as children that will effect growth, bone density, sexual function, the ability to breastfeed and their intimate relationships.

I posted words to that effect on the Stonewall in schools thread. There is not enough space for girls to discuss changes to their bodies without boys being there and "rights" being discussed.

We need to get back to, in primaries, the period nurse coming to discuss this with those who genetically will experience this not gender optionees.

Girls of 15 should be protected by law against liberal choices because they will go and take irreversible changes to their bodies at such an age.

Do you want to be women in the future where these xx-chromosomed girls who are now women who say "you saw this and did nothing and I was a child."

Do it now - think about how you were taught about maturing into an xx-chromosomed human and whether it helped. Then, as women, spread it, so it isn't buried away as "nothing".

Feminism is not won permanently, it is eroding, fast, in front of our eyes, and the girls of today are suffering.

What can you do for girls today - tomorrow?

@IWillSqueakAgain

I was a young girl in care, dressed in boys clothing, shaved my head and opted for my unisex middle name not my very female first name I grew up with. Already in therapy at that point and medicated for Adhd with what was often termed a male presentation of adhd (which is bs, but it’s on my social services records). I think I would have been one of the first they’d push through it.

A couple of years after I got dumped at my dads and had to wear skirts to school and ended up growing my hair long and wearing make up and probably appeared much more feminine outwardly. But when younger and first in care, I was very gnc and so damaged I would have jumped at the chance not to be a girl. Anything to get rid of my girls body and the abuse I got because of it.

Like most women on fwr I’m a mix of lots of gnc aspects and some more commonly associated with feminity. No matter how I’ve appeared outwardly I’ve always just been me and no amount of rejecting female sex rome stereotypes kept me safe from male sexual violence.

Squeak - good to see you here - I am so sorry to hear about your background.

I loved having short hair, mainly it was because it too 2 seconds to comb. Blimmin lockdown! I'd shave it but it'd look rubbish. I need a barber.

Plus side, DS2 likes playing with it as if he is a hairdresser, combing it through, etc so it's ok to be long for the moment

The lady who is struggling with a trans child - check. Check its not bullying. Check its not fear of growing up. Check it's not not fitting in with the "it" girks, or something else. If your DC is considering puberty blockers, this is forever, for real, yet if they don't, there's always the choice to go for it as an adult.

The transDC cannot possibly know that there's any different answer than the one in their head - because they are a teenager (presumably, going through puberty) - every teenager forever cannot see anything other than their own POV - that's why they are legally protected as children until the age of 18

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

I tell my kids there are two sexes. No room for nonsense in my home.

The arrogance.

What would you do if your child said they were trans? Just usher them away and ignore it because enough don't stand nonsense in your home?

You might want to do a bit more research into what its like to have a trans child before thinking you're so superior and would simply say "no" and that would be the end of it.

Well, there are only two sexes - xx-chromosomed female and xy-chromosomed male.

No matter which your DC wants to be their body will never be able to change their genetic sex. So no. You are wrong. 2 sexes.

My (previously) DSS recently 'came out' as a woman.

There's a few smug posters on here who think such a thing could never happen in their family thanks to their fabulous parenting. Good on them. But kids grow up, are exposed to many influences outside the home, form their own views.

I'm fairly GC and alarmed by radical transactivism but of course keep those views to myself because as an individual (now) DSD, who is an adult, deserves respect and support for their choices.

@Providora

My (previously) DSS recently 'came out' as a woman.

There's a few smug posters on here who think such a thing could never happen in their family thanks to their fabulous parenting. Good on them. But kids grow up, are exposed to many influences outside the home, form their own views.

I'm fairly GC and alarmed by radical transactivism but of course keep those views to myself because as an individual (now) DSD, who is an adult, deserves respect and support for their choices.

Good for you. Your DSD has got to a happier place.

Its the radicalness of it all which is dangerous and is impacting on xx-chromosomed females whose gender aligns, and are being persecuted amd discriminated againt for it

@IWillSqueakAgain

I literally said that wouldn’t be my approach, because that’s not how we approach our girls because of their disabilities anyways.

But I get some others think that way. Parents have responsibility for how their child affects wider society also, not just taking care of their kids feelings. If a white kid came home to their parents claiming they had an innate inner black essence and threatened to kill themselves if the parents didn’t accept them and the parents affirmed and soothed them they’d be ripped to shreds on here for that approach. It would be expected that the parents pull the kid up for being a racist little fucker and all posters here would be saying the kids mh problems are nothing ti do with trans race and get the real issue addressed, not indulge a highly offensive insensitive fantasy.

A boy claiming to be a girl implies that those of us female identity our way into oppression. And that’s just as offensive and misogynistic as trans race is racist. So I get some parents feel they’d approach it with a no nonsense hard line. That isn’t my way my girls disablties are so extreme they were in private psych care age 4 because of nervous breakdown. I don’t spend much time thinking of raising them to be good citizens or good members if society. I probably should now we’ve got through the worse years ( I must be the only parent whose kids suddenly got easy when they hit teens, but we’ve had decade plus of extreme risk prior, haven’t slept through the night in 13 years, one kid didn’t leave my side literally for several years, including needing carried in a sling until age 8, and the other didn’t leave the house for over a year solid at one point, couldn’t even venture into the garden). So my perspective is often odd, but frequently here parents talk about raising kids to be conscientious members of society, to understand not to be racist or misogynistic. And a lot if parents seem to be very no nonsense about many things that relate to that, so I understand they might find the same approach appropriate if their kid came home saying they were trans. They wouldn’t affirm their kids anarexia and support them buying illegal diet pills and be watchful and waiting while their kid does 4 hours at the gym each day. Presumably parents being firm kids have to face reality is a standard part of parenting. I mean fuck mine are extreme and can’t learn the same way many other kids can, but I wouldn’t sit by and let them throw themselves in front of cars age four and bang their head of the road until their bleeding. Just because they were in extreme distress I couldn’t mitigate and felt entirely powerless around didn’t mean I would let them hurt themselves and others. I got hurt a great deal while preventing them be at further risk, and it was unbearable for me, and damaged my relationship with them to some extent, but there’s no way it would have been ok to affirm their wish to run head long into self harm just because of the distress they were in.

Exactly, Squeak. And I am sorry to hear about the difficuties in your personal circumstances, the patience you must have

Put and word in place of gender in the sentence that means a change of genetics and the picture is suddenly very different. That's why mixing up gender amd sex is wrong. They are not synonymous

Put *any word

Children are being fed the lie that they can choose/change their sex.

Non conforming should be celebrated. Teens should rebel. Dye their hair, piercings, tattoos, wear all black and scowl at people. But start on a journey of becoming a lifelong medical patient and altering perfectly healthy bodies instead of dealing with the causes of their dysphoria, all before their bodies and brains are mature is wrong.

Sex isn't 'assigned at birth' ffs. Still can't believe people still spout that bollocks.

@nolongersurprised

Whereas those of us parenting trans kids don't care at all. Thank fuck for strangers on the internet who are self proclaimed experts 'caring' about our kids

No where have I said that parents aren’t caring for their children.

There are so many adult female voices on this thread through, saying that they may have opted out of puberty progression if that had been offered to them. They are worried that, for these girls, choosing hormones and surgery is because they are opting out of what they see as conventional womanhood.
These adult women on this thread who discuss their childhood experiences are not trans.

Although I am not a “self-proclaimed expert” I do work with young people and see increasing number of girls wanting to transition. They are typically anxious girls with ASD who are socially awkward and socially isolated. They all talk about “top surgery” because they read about these terms on the internet.

It is worrying and I do care.

Do you seriously think most parents aren’t aware of this? We don’t affirm our daughter as a boy. However, he school affirmed her behind our backs. When we found out and complained, we were told we had no say. When we complained further, they said they would use “they/them” which is no better in our opinion. My DD says they still affirm her as a boy anyway, so I suspect they are lying to us.

Then they reported us to social services for not affirming (I suspect, but don’t have confirmation that the trigger was our refusal to let her wear a binder) So we had all of that to deal with though thankfully social services said they had no role to play in our situation. But we had that added stress which tipped my already incredibly fragile daughter over the edge. We are far from alone in being reported.

So school affirms her. All her friends and peer group affirm her. She has the mother of a friend who tries to get her to “surreptitiously” go to her house so she is in a supportive environment away from us. Social media affirms her. Everyone tells her we are wrong (and in many cases, emotionally abusive) for not affirming her. It is an external battle we cannot win. A.l we can do is give her a safe and loving home environment.

We’ve now had three mental health professionals tell us affirmation is not suitable for us. The school don’t give a crap- it’s all about what she wants. We can’t move her- all the schools in our LA follow the LGBT Youth Scotland guidance and she will be affirmed no matter where she goes. I am just thankful for the on/off bouts of online learning we’ve been having which has allowed her mental health to stabilise.

Yes, some parents automatically affirm their children, but an awful lot of us don’t, or do some variation depending on the state of their mental health and many of the posts on this thread are coming off as ridiculously naive.

Do you seriously think most parents aren’t aware of this?

Honestly, I think a lot of parents aren’t aware. They are flummoxed by their daughters declaring they identify as male and most professionals they seek for assistance are affirming - GPS, gender clinics, psychologists. Here in Australia as soon as they reach a gender clinic it’s all over.

Parents are worried, they look for assistance and almost all of that assistance tells them that their daughter is trans. The exceptions to this seem to only be found on MN - this is not a criticism as I would be one too.

My children don’t have a disconnect between their sex and gender, they’ve been brought up knowing they’re male/female. They have interests that aren’t typical of their sex because they’ve been encouraged to explore things they enjoy and are interested in, they’re not told “girls/boys can’t do that, that’s only for boys/girls”.

And while we’re at it, what does feeling a disconnect between being male/female even mean? You can’t feel male or female, you can feel like a person though. You can dislike stereotypical sex based interests etc, that doesn’t mean you’re the opposite sex though. It means you like something that isn’t a stereotype. Perhaps if everyone focused on letting their children grow and like what they like without forcing sex stereotypes on them we’d have less of this madness.

suggestions that other clinical conditions were just down to bad parenting?

There is a clear link here again between the way that the parents of trans children feel that they are blamed for their children's conditions and the way that autistic parents are often made to feel, particularly in the lead up to diagnosis and by professionals, often in schools, who advocate for the fact that the child must fit in to the school system often at extreme cost to the child's mental health.

Trans parents are no more to blame than the parents of autistic children.

I do feel that both sets of parents, and there is a significant overlap, are let down by the woeful lack of mental health service.

I wonder whether if we had better services to help autistic children that didn't stop at the point of diagnosis often with a leaflet and telling parent s to get on with it, whether there would be less autistic children presenting as trans.

I also think it may be convenient for the likes of CAMHS to attribute the problems of autistic girls to gender issues and therefore a transfer to gender services to keep the numbers down. `i know that that this might be seen as controversial but I can't emphasis enough how little support there is for autistic children generally.

Do you want to be women in the future where these xx-chromosomed girls who are now women who say "you saw this and did nothing and I was a child."

Keira Bell has already won a judicial review of the GIDS service at the Tavistock Institute on pretty much this question. So it's happening already.

What's ow emerging is the "capture" of GIDS by gender extremist ideology, leaving in its wake evidence of lack of basic good health care practice, and therapeutic care.

"First, do no harm."

@rogdmum Your love and support for your DD shines out.

Plus, I don’t think the gender identity issues occur in a vacuum. Given that adolescent girls with autism are at high risk for gender identity issues parents are already on hyper alert. By definition girls with ASD will have seen either a paed or psychiatrist for the original diagnosis with original contact made due to some form of distress or anxiety. Most doctors seem to be affirmative so a parent who already has a relationship with these doctors will trust them to refer to the gender “experts”. I don’t think that many parents are particularly clued up about gender identity issues, particularly if they are lurching from crisis to crisis.

rogdmum, I'm so sorry to hear about what you're going through.
We're treading a very fine line with these children when there's a movement literally love bombing them and we parents are the only bad guys in our children's lives for not colluding with this.

If only it was as simple as declaring there are only two sexes and we'll have none of this nonsense in our home! Well this nonsense presents itself as an ever more afraid and unhappy child who needs home to be a place of safety. My child is an older teenager and I feel we have two years at best to help them avoid a life of medicalisation, before they're able to independently find more organisations that will affirm. I can't fritter that time by pushing my child away by declaring we'll have none of that nonsense when there's an almost cultish movement telling them how much they'll love and accept them them if we don't.

@Nat6999

My 17 year old son came out to me that he was gay age 12 & has in the last few months identified as non binary. It's hard for parents because all the hopes & plans you have for your child's future seem to be gone, I don't know if I will ever have grandchildren as ds is an only one. I worry about him getting hurt as you hear about gay & trans people getting attacked for what they are.

But why do you feel like that?

I just look at it that we aren't at the point in history were the LGBTQ+ community are excluded from anything. Not legally.

Marriage is legal
Adoption is legal
Surrogacy is a very real thing
They don't get passed over for jobs, or mortgages or anything else.

DD has said they want to find a girl to marry one day. They aren't sure on children but they're not at an age where anyone really thinks of having kids yet.
Look at Its a Sin. A show like that even 20 years ago would have caused headlines about filth on TV and the media would have crucified it. Russel T Davis experienced that with Queer as Folk.
Yet the consensus has been wholly positive, it's been called groundbreaking and had hashtags and awards speak and nothing but love.
I don't see my DD being non-binary or fancying girls as a full stop on their life. I see it as they are stomping along their own path.
I know you do still get some homophobia, but certainly at their school it is treated the same way as racism. They take part in Pride. They are very much an inclusive school.

I just know the struggles ds has had even before this, he is ASD & was badly bullied, knowing that bullies pick on anyone they see as being different makes me very worried for him. I know that being gay or trans doesn't stop you from adopting but it does make things harder. I also worry about the fact that son is ASD & hangs around with a group of friends who are largely LGBT, is he just trying to fit in or is it really what he is?

@Nat6999

I just know the struggles ds has had even before this, he is ASD & was badly bullied, knowing that bullies pick on anyone they see as being different makes me very worried for him. I know that being gay or trans doesn't stop you from adopting but it does make things harder. I also worry about the fact that son is ASD & hangs around with a group of friends who are largely LGBT, is he just trying to fit in or is it really what he is?

Hmm, that does make it more challenging.

But then, DD hangs around in a group of predominantly LGBTQ kids and drama and art kids and is very much the dominant "do not fuck with us or else" member. DD would be very protective of your DS, her brother has disabilities and is Asperger's so they won't take any shit from anyone regards nasty behaviour.

I think it's like anything, we can only support and advise. And offer a shoulder where needed. If the group are LGBTQ there will be that certain level of support and understanding.

@LastRoloIsMine

MadameButterface

Good to see that there’s no transphobia in mumsnet, as usual

SHUT UP!

Thats not whats happening. Parents are sharing advice on how to manage their complex teens.
I have shared my own story ir my troubled son.

Nobody is hating or fearing trans children we are just trying to understand what is behind their dysphoria.

Excuse your mouth, my kid is trans too. I was talking about the people who have had posts deleted (and there are a lot) for pushing the ‘my child would never be trans because i am a great parent and have explained that it’s all nonsense’ disablist/transphobic line. No one would speak like this about autism (well they used to but that shit is no longer tolerated and rightly so). And i will not shut up. Feel free to report anything that breaks talk guidelines.

Well said MadameButterface

The belittling of trans people and their families by GC posters is getting very out of control on mn.

Well said MadameButterface

Wow.

Wears wrong sexed clothes. Plays with wrong sexed toys.

Ignoring the sexism and regressive stereotypes,

Don’t they realise who pays for said clothing or toys in a household.

Doesn’t basing it on material items most commonly funded by and often controlled by parents is a dangerous bench mark of a child’s preference?