To ask if you have a child who identifies as trans or expresses disconnect between their gender and sex?

[Scroremanga]

I remember a post which asked how many people on mumsnet felt a disconnect between their gender and sex. Out of 1000 respondents, 10 per cent said they did.

How about people are aware their child or children feel that their gender and sex are disconnected?

Yabu-I am pretty sure my child feels aligned with their sex and gender

Yanbu - my child expresses that they are do not feel

It would also be helpful whether to know whether ds or dd thats experiencing this

Thanks

My 9 year old son understands that gender is a social construct and that society has made up stupid rules about what are girls and boys should be like in terms of clothes, toys, hairstyles etc. He understands that he is male because he has a penis and testicles and the fact that he likes My Little Pony and has long hair doesn't and will never affect that. HTH.

Couldn't vote because neither of your options match my experience.

I don’t have a child that identifies as trans. But I also don’t have a child that identifies as a gender, I don’t think. My son knows he is male because he has male genitalia. Likewise for my daughter. Beyond that everything is personal preference (and they understand that) so they both have a variety of interests and have clothes from both the “boys” and “girls” section. My son has dresses for example and my daughter often wears trousers from the “boys” section. So I’m not sure how they would express their gender? Or maybe I’m missing something.

@WhoEatsPopTarts

My children don’t feel a disconnect between their sex and gender because they’ve been brought up in a home that doesn’t reinforce gender stereotypes.

So have my Grandchildren, but one child identifies as the other gender.

I have a daughter who identifies as a boy. Putting it down to gender stereotypes is far too simplistic, IMO. There are a multitude of reasons adolescent girls are now experiencing gender distress and in many cases it is a maladaptive coping mechanism for underlying issues.

Marcus and Sue Evans have a book coming out in the Spring looking at how best to support these young people- a summary of their thoughts is here:

quillette.com/2021/02/04/first-do-no-harm-a-new-model-for-treating-trans-identified-children/

I agree with other re gender - it’s a social construct and an oppressive tool not an actual fact

My middle daughter went through a phase of only buying clothes from the boys section of shops - lasted two years - I just let her - didn’t need to explain it it was just what she wanted

She’s a young woman - she’s still a young woman who likes jeans and jumpers and plays football - she’s not a boy, she’s not in the wrong body and she doesn’t need a label to explain her!

DD is nervous about getting breasts and periods. She doesn't want them.
She is learning from friends and tik-tok and possibly school that it is possible to change sex.
At home, we make it clear that you can't.

No, mine have not, but then gender conformity is not something I'm big on...

I don't wear heels, makeup or skirts / dresses. Live in trousers, top and boots. Have no interest in typically girly things like getting my nails done etc. Can tolerate only a small amount of shopping. Only exception is that I love a spa day, but I do those with my husband as much as I do them with anyone else.... I'm more interested in sport and have been to more football matches than he has too!

I also teach Sociology and do believe that gender is a social construct rather than something innate in us. So my children are free to explore who they are and express themselves as they'd like without having to label it. However they are both quite traditionally feminine. Way more than I am!

Stuff like this really winds me up. But I can see there are others on here who shares my views.

From 4 to about 12 I wanted to be a boy. Only dressed in boy clothes, preferred to play with boys (though they rejected me) & had short hair.

So what, I'm a straight, married mother now. I'll wear dresses & make up & genuinely enjoy being a woman. Nothing about any of this makes me trans or rejecting my gender/sex/whatever!

A woman (or a man) can be any version of that. FFS just because someone likes driving a car fast doesn't make them a man. Because someone likes making cakes & dancing, they're not a woman.

We're all people & there's a spectrum of what being "a woman" means.

There shouldn't be 'compatability' between your sex and how you act and express yourself and relate to people in everyday life (which is basically what you mean by gender).

That's exactly what feminism stands for.

You shouldn't feel you have to, or be expected to, act a certain way or like certain things or dress a certain way because you are female, or male.

That's why the trans idealogy is so damaging, so repressive, so insidiously misogynist (because it's always the female sex being elbowed into boxes by the male).

BEING trans is something else entirely.

being an everyday teenager finding their way in the world and discovering that how they feel inside doesn't align to a set of stereotypes is - normal.

... and it's why the concept of 'living as a woman' is such absolute insulting nonsense when you apply critical thinking to it, even for a millisecond.

You can't 'live as' a woman - unless you are a woman - because there is no external set of criteria which, if you follow them, means that you experience life 'as a woman'

It's a complete nonsense.

My son feels no disconnect between his sex and his gender because I haven’t placed any gender stereotype limitations on him. If he wants to dress in pink and sparkle (and that was a loong phase, he still has a pink bedroom!) then that’s ok with me. He’s obsessed with Disney, he also loves tractors and engines etc. We play with dolls and that’s a healthy way to explore psychology, although I have noticed that as he gets older the games are suddenly becoming more violent in time with his increased body hair😱

I can imagine that if I’d spent years saying ‘no you can’t have that because you’re a boy’ (as I often see other parents do 😢) then he’d gave some major issues by now.

As it is he has no real concept of gender other than that I explained that it’s traditional for only girls to wear dresses/skirts because it helps with going to the loo and that they’re impractical and he doesn’t need them. Sometimes his hair is long, sometimes it’s short - up to him.

Scroremanga - can you tell us what you mean by gender?

What are the characteristics of say 'female gender' and/or male gender?

I do know that being transgender is definitely something that happens, and have a friend who definitely needed to make that transition.

However I am concerned that gender-stereotypes are becoming much stronger, with an implication that if you don't fit the sterotype, you must be trans or non-binary.

I was never a "girly" girl - I didn't fit the stereotype, but I've never felt anything but female. When I was at that difficult stage of being a teenager, and working out who I was, there was never even any option of being anything else. That was very bad for those who were really struggling with gender identity, but perhaps good for those of us where the real problem was just finding friends we fitted with. Now, I think we may have swung to a position where those struggling to fit in are encouraged to explore whether their gender identity is the issue; sometimes it might be, but I suspect all too often it is not. No harm in them exploring, but I think there needs to be a lot of caution about starting to go down the medical routes.

Do I feel a gender disconnect? I'm quite certain I am female and staying that way, but I am aware that I don't conform to the stereotype. I don't think that's a "disconnect", but if we start saying "you don't conform, so maybe you're not female", then I think we put all sorts of unnecessary doubts in youngsters' minds.

My SS was born female but now identifies as male.

My children know that gender doesn't exist as something people 'have' inside themselves.
So it's an impossibility to feel a mismatch between something that does exist as part of them (their sex) and something made up and imposed by others.

However, both of them are aware that there are unfair expectations and limitations placed on them by society because of their sex, and both of them object strongly to this. They understand that this is sexism and this is stereotypes, which is exactly what 'gender' actually is. Stereotypes that other people try to enforce.

It isn't 'their' gender because gender isn't innate in anyone. It's something other people project onto their sex.

This means that when they reject gender they aren't rejecting or struggling with something inside themselves. They are rejecting other people's expectations, rules and sexism imposed from outside.

They know that other people believe in sexism and in stereotypes and like the idea that they are innate to each sex and more meaningful than sex itself.

They are able to see that this is exactly like racists believing that racial stereotypes are true and innate.

We're not believers in racism OR sexism. So we reject 'gender' as vehemently as we reject racism.

@CuntAmongstThePigeons

I find it interesting you say it matters in a way to your child that it didn't to you. But don't labels often matter to children? They represent identity, social hierarchy, things which are very important to growing minds.

I used to identify as a goth. And it REALLY mattered. Everything was pierced, loved the music, loved the clothes, loved the melancholy. As an adult I still love the clothes and the music and I still have some of the piercings. But I realized, as most do when you reach adulthood. I no longer needed it to define me. My only identity now is not "goth" its cunt. And all the hobbies and interests and relationships and emotions that go with being cunt. But I no longer crave that feeling of being seen, being in the group, having a club, needing an identity. I just grew up.

It's very true @CuntAmongstThePigeons that teenagers have always always clung to identities. And feel passionately about them. That's part of the normal developmental process of adolescence and will always shift in all sorts of directions. And as we grow we have a totally different relationship to all that.

We need to have a much better understanding of what it is teenagers are actually seeking when looking at their identity. Not just trans. Any identity

maddaddam absolutely not trying to be goady, but when you say

one who absoltely and emphatically does not identify with their assigned sex at birth,
can you unpack a bit what you mean by "identifying with their assigned sex"? How does one identify with a sex? Do you mean a sex class ie women as a class [or man]? What characteristics do they think that sex class share that your child doesn't?

I find it really hard to follow and get lost with concepts like this, so any clarification is welcome.

I can tell you that at 9 my son wanted a pottery toy for a Christmas present but worried it was 'for girls' as it was in the pink side of the shop.

I can tell you that an acquaintance laughed and said my sons would turn out gay as I had bought a pink buggy type thing to help with their walking when they were toddlers.

I can tell you that being in close proximity to pink, dolls, skirts and dresses, or wanting to play house with a baby doll doesn't and will never make my sons girls and should they express that feeling I will make it clear - as I did in the first example - that what you do and what you like doesn't mean your sex (or gender ) can change.

If I'd taught my dd that as she is a girl she is only supposed to like/wear/do certain things then I'm sure she would have a problem, as many of the things she likes/wears/does are typically classed as masculine. However, I have taught her no such thing, and so far I'm her main influence so she's perfectly happy being a girl with her own personality. She's nearly 7, perhaps she feel more discomfort with age as she starts to notice what society's expectations are and how she differs... But I hope not.

My child plays with whatever she damn well pleases and wears whatever she wants.

I imagine if I told her as a girl she can only wear dresses and play with dolls then she might be pretty hacked off, but luckily I don't live in 1950 suburbia so I'm not going to tell her such sexist shit.

My DC are just my DC.

They live, work and play. They both cook, clean and iron. They both do martial arts, rock climb, jet ski on holiday. They wear what they want (or what they must eg uniform), have the friends that they have and relax how they wish.

In other words, they are people. Of these 2 people, 1 has a male body and 1 has a female body. That's it.

What exactly is gender identity? I'm not sure I fully understand. Does it simply mean say, a boy that likes traditional girly things or vice versa? And if that is the case, then why do folk need to change or reassign their gender, why can't they simply like what they like?

I voted YABU not in line with your options which you have no right to impose but because I really can't be doing with lazy-arsed hacks using MN to do their work for them. So YABU again.

Most women go through a series of disconnects between our sex and the socially & historically specific sex-based stereotypes and roles (gender) society tries to socialise us into.

Puberty is particularly difficult for young girls. I hated having periods. Messy & painful, and in an era (1970s) when any evidence (blood, smell etc) was considered shameful.

The problem nowadays is that a lot of young girls think they can 'identify out' of this, instead of adding to the sheroic efforts to challenge and change these sexist social stereotypes.

What do they say: "Feminists try to change the world so everyone can live in it without discomfort; gender extremist ideologues try to change their bodies."

And there's mounting evidence to suggest that for many (maybe a majority?) who do change or medicate their bodies, there's suffering from irreversible consequence, and the medication/surgery doesn't actually help the disconnect.

I also think there's something in the philosophical criticism of the Western mind/body split - the idea that our brains/mind/consciousness is separate from our body. I think that if we adopted a more holistic view of mind-body, we'd all be a lot more content.