To ask if you have a child who identifies as trans or expresses disconnect between their gender and sex?

[Scroremanga]

I remember a post which asked how many people on mumsnet felt a disconnect between their gender and sex. Out of 1000 respondents, 10 per cent said they did.

How about people are aware their child or children feel that their gender and sex are disconnected?

Yabu-I am pretty sure my child feels aligned with their sex and gender

Yanbu - my child expresses that they are do not feel

It would also be helpful whether to know whether ds or dd thats experiencing this

Thanks

So if you want to know how I'm so sure that my kids will never be trans, it's because they already can distinguish between sex and bullshit sexism. So they'll never meet any criteria of "playing with the wrong toys" because we'll never believe that the wrong toys even exist for either sex.

Yet more arrogance. As if all of us parents of trans children don't know what we are doing.

I have 6 dc. 1 of those dc is trans. If I described all of their looks, hobbies and interests, including those of my trans child, you would never be able to distinguish if they were boys or girls. There us no stereotyping or sexism in my house, yet I still have a trans kid.

Those who don't go through this with their kids feel so morally superior, it's embarrassing.

To be diagnosed as 'gender dysphoric' you have to fully buy in to the idea of undiluted sexism and stereotypes. It's baked into the diagnostic criteria, and it's impossible to get a diagnosis without believing that sexist stereotypes matter more than sex.

I’m of a polar opposite view to Quaagars on this issue, but no, no, no. An adolescent doesn’t need to believe that. An adolescent needs to convince an eagerly affirming Tavi or Sandyford clinician that they believe it. I am under absolutely no illusions that my DD would not be able to do so, were she to be seen by GIDS. She wants to be seen as a boy and she knows what she needs to do/say to achieve that. That has nothing to do with how she has been brought up and everything to do with underlying issues.

That was an exceptionally vile post.

Yes everyone with a trans child buys into sexist stereotypes about what men and women should do and look like. Unlike GC feminists.

On an unrelated note here’s GC feminist darling posie parker deciding that dr finn mackay, a butch lesbian woman, must be trans because of how she looks and behaves.

So if you want to know how I'm so sure that my kids will never be trans, it's because they already can distinguish between sex and bullshit sexism. So they'll never meet any criteria of "playing with the wrong toys" because we'll never believe that the wrong toys even exist for either sex.

We never believed that either. And it's the daughter who played with the widest possible selection of toys who now identifies as non-binary. Their favourite childhood activities included lego, mud, trees (for climbing), dressing up, crafty stuff with glitter, playing music, lighting campfires, rock climbing, swimming and drama. I struggle to see any gender stereotypes in that mix.

They are also now 18 and make their own decisions. Which doesn't appear to have occurred to some of the posters who are so sure about their perfect parenting trumping all.

I’m of a polar opposite view to Quaagars on this issue, but no, no, no

Sorry, maybe I'm being a bit thick but that wasn't me you've quoted so not sure why you've mentioned me there?

Ah, OK, sorry just realised it was probably in relation to the now deleted post I went wow at?

Quaagars Yes, that’s it - we are in agreement re our views of that now deleted post, but I suspect that’s all we are in agreement about this issue.

I.e. that post was so bad, polar opposite sides of the issue agree it was bad.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

So if you want to know how I'm so sure that my kids will never be trans, it's because they already can distinguish between sex and bullshit sexism. So they'll never meet any criteria of "playing with the wrong toys" because we'll never believe that the wrong toys even exist for either sex.

Yet more arrogance. As if all of us parents of trans children don't know what we are doing.

I have 6 dc. 1 of those dc is trans. If I described all of their looks, hobbies and interests, including those of my trans child, you would never be able to distinguish if they were boys or girls. There us no stereotyping or sexism in my house, yet I still have a trans kid.

Those who don't go through this with their kids feel so morally superior, it's embarrassing.

hi lemon, I've seen some of your posts re this. Can I ask exactly what it is about your dc that makes them trans.

What do they use to define themselves as not one, but the other?

@rogdmum

Quaagars Yes, that’s it - we are in agreement re our views of that now deleted post, but I suspect that’s all we are in agreement about this issue.

See, people can agree with me sometimes lol I do sometimes (sometimes!) agree with some of the more moderate posts and posters, but the ones that are a bit too much I never will

Can I ask exactly what it is about your dc that makes them trans

How can anyone who's not trans adequately explain that, or anyone who is trans as well?

hilemon, I've seen some of your posts re this. Can I ask exactly what it is about your dc that makes them trans.

It was a long process to get there, and, to be honest I'm not entirely sure I can explain it myself.

From a very, very young age there was a feeling of being 'wrong' somehow. My child simply never felt like their mind and body fitted together. They danced and boxed and sports and crafts and had long hair and short hair at various times, they had all kinds of friends from all walks of life. For my child it was never about stuff, or pressure from anyone. I am aware that isn't the case for everyone.

As my child has now explained to me, and as I said upthread, its the feeling of something being so wrong (such as people who want larger or smaller breasts, a smaller nose, their ears pinned back or whatever) that they have tried to live with it, and its so detrimental to their mental health that they simply can't, so they are now taking steps to align their body with how they feel they should look.

This is my understanding from what my child tells me. I don't absolutely understand it, because I've never felt that way, but I am supportive.

I sincerely apologise to those my post offended, in particular rogdmum.

I'm linking the actual diagnostic criteria here and am choosing my words more carefully.

I do not believe any child is trans, but that does not mean I don't believe children are not anguished trying to make sense of this.
I don't believe it matters what toys a child plays with, who their friends are and what clothes they like. I think that stuff is irrelevant. Not meaningful, and definitely NOT something any doctor should note down as relevant to any diagnosis.

BUT please, look at the diagnostic criteria.

Those who treat being trans or having gender dysphoria as a diagnosable condition - the gender clinicians doing the diagnosing - DO think such things matter. As do many children who are their patients. And as a result children are harmed.

The picture linked shows the DSM criteria for diagnosing gender dysphoria in children.
There are 8 possible indicators.
A child must have 6 of the 8 indicators to be diagnosed.

A child who only wants to escape or change their physical sexed body but who doesn't ALSO demonstrate the stereotype criteria does not meet enough criteria to be diagnosed.

That is what I mean when I say the sexism is baked in to the diagnosis. Without telling a clinician that a child wears X clothes, or plays with Y toys, or has Z friends, a child will not be diagnosed. They won't meet enough criteria.
The entire diagnosis critically rests upon stereotypes.

Toys account for two criteria
Clothes are one
Games and activities are one
Friends are one

Only 2 of the criteria relate to a child's feelings about their body. A third is about their desire to be the other 'gender'; what that means is not explained.
These 3 criteria alone are not enough to be diagnosed. 6 are needed in total.

The remaining 5 criteria are about stereotypes.
5 out of 8 diagnostic criteria require a child to either buy into the concept of clothes, friends, toys and games being sexed, and their choices being meaningful, OR to successfully lie to convince a clinician that they believe this.

A child who doesn't either genuinely buy into the listed stereotypes, or can't lie convincingly and say they do, won't meet enough criteria.
They will not be diagnosed as having gender dysphoria.

Barracker was entirely correct that it’s utterly vile to use the experience of people with autism to draw a parallel with trans.

Sex role stereotype socialisation occurs, as it sounds, in society. So I don’t think parents attitudes to sex role stereotypes is a defining character.

But the child themselves presenting at assessment must either buy into sex role stereotypes (because otherwise how do they identify they don’t identify with the sex role stereotypes pushed on their sex) or they pretend they buy into them fur the sake of getting the diagnosis.

If the latter is the case then why needs asked. The only reason I could see is the ones so many fwr mums see in ourselves when we were young, that it’s a way of disowning our sexed bodies and how we are treated based on them.

I don’t think blaming parents for pushes those stereotypes is right, because the influence of socialisation over rides that frequently, it’s not something easy to escape even if parents directly, preemptively address it insightfully. But there’s no way out of the fact that the diagnosis is entirely tied up in such regressive, sexist, misogynistic sex role stereotypes. Barracker is spot on there.

I'm linking the actual diagnostic criteria here and am choosing my words more carefully

You said what you said though so they're clearly your views, even if you choose to try and sugar coat them to try and skirt round the guidelines.

Also I see you've conveniently missed out that you said it was down to parenting if they "turned out trans" and as someone with a trans child rightfully pointed out, that isn't the case.

I don't believe I did use the phrase "turned out trans" Quaagars. I've already said I don't believe any child is literally trans.

I don't believe I said it was "down to parenting" either. Parents exert influence over their child. Even if they themselves see stereotypes for what they are, it isn't always enough to counter the constant stream of messaging their child receives telling them the opposite.
There are always more people telling them male and female are identities than there are not. Parents can't always counter that pressure.

I said to be diagnosed one had to buy into stereotypes as meaningful, because they are part of the diagnostic criteria.

And rogdmum pointed out that you can also lie about that to get diagnosed too. I would agree with that.

So believe stereotypes, or lie and say you do. Those are the only two options to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria as a child.

So believe stereotypes, or lie and say you do. Those are the only two options to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria as a child.

This is incorrect. Admittedly the process is a lot less rigorous than it once was, but having been through the diagnostic process twice, I can say with 100% certainty that they aren't the only options at all.

The 8 indicators of the diagnostic criteria are upthread.
Are you saying that children are being improperly diagnosed with gender dysphoria without meeting the necessary criteria?

I don't believe I did use the phrase "turned out trans" Quaagars. I've already said I don't believe any child is literally trans

Fine, nitpick over the wording used.
Doesn;t change what you said though..

Also
Parents exert influence over their child. Even if they themselves see stereotypes for what they are, it isn't always enough to counter the constant stream of messaging their child receives telling them the opposite.There are always more people telling them male and female are identities than there are not. Parents can't always counter that pressure*

Which is a softer way of saying it's down to parenting which is what your original post said.
Talking about stereotypes and basically how children if they are brought up knowing which toy is which (whatever the fuck that means) then they won't, or are less likely to be trans.
I paraphrase but that's what you said.
Starting to realise why people screenshot now, some serious back pedalling going on!

Are you saying that children are being improperly diagnosed with gender dysphoria without meeting the necessary criteria?

I am saying that my child was diagnosed and my child shows no preference for anything stereotypical from either side, nor has my child lied. I can only talk about my experience of going through the process.

That means your child recognises sex role stereotypes attributed to each sex different. Which shows their preference to reject bkth is based on buying into the fact they exist in the first place. Which supports Barrackers point.

That means your child recognises sex role stereotypes attributed to each sex different. Which shows their preference to reject bkth is based on buying into the fact they exist in the first place. Which supports Barrackers point.

it really doesn't. I'm explaining what happened.

This is an interesting thread.

I think to some extent what you are saying DifficultPificult is that your DC being trans is no different from the fact that I hate my wonky nose? Except your child is doing something about it, whereas the thought of what actually happens in a nose job puts me off?

I understand that parallel, but where it becomes problematic is that even if I did have surgery to straighten my wonky nose, it would not affect anyone else but me. Whereas the ‘rights’ of a trans person to enter the space of the other sex affect those of the other sex who might not wish that, but cannot express that without being labelled a bigot.

The other thing I wonder is what this does to gender non-conforming DC who are not stereotypically feminine or masculine in presentation, but are nonetheless their sex and recognise that. What is the difference between say, my DD, who likes to wear clothes from the men’s department but accepts that she is female (and argues for equality of the sexes so does not accept the way women are treated), and a non-binary DC who does similar but says they are non-binary and not female.

I am sorry if any of this is worded wrongly or offensive, it is not intended to be, I genuinely am trying to understand.

If your child doesn't meet any of the stereotype indicators, then should they ever in the future decide they have been misdiagnosed like Keira Bell, their medical record will be evidence that they did not meet the required minimum of 6 of 8 diagnostic criteria.

More importantly, it raises a question now over why they have been diagnosed with GD.

Doesn't this give you pause? There are other conditions that result in dysphoria with one's body and a desire to change it. Anorexia is one, body dysmorphia is another. Their treatment is different, as are the outcomes.
If a child is misdiagnosed with gender dysphoria, one of these conditions may be the real issue and the appropriate treatment will be missed.