To ask if you have a child who identifies as trans or expresses disconnect between their gender and sex?

[Scroremanga]

I remember a post which asked how many people on mumsnet felt a disconnect between their gender and sex. Out of 1000 respondents, 10 per cent said they did.

How about people are aware their child or children feel that their gender and sex are disconnected?

Yabu-I am pretty sure my child feels aligned with their sex and gender

Yanbu - my child expresses that they are do not feel

It would also be helpful whether to know whether ds or dd thats experiencing this

Thanks

My child is doing Biology and Chemistry as two of their A Level subjects, so they're way ahead of me on that stuff. And they are well informed, and do not bow to peer pressure.

@FancyAnOlive

This idea that people are trans because they grew up believing in gender stereotypes is a bizarre one, I think. I have several trans friends, the majority of whom are transmen who identified as lesbians before they transitioned. They were not in any way leading the life of a gender stereotype, several of them identified as butch prior to transitioning. I really don't think they then made the decision to transition because they felt they could only behave in a particular way/do particular things if they identified as a man. They are all people who have always been very critical of gender stereotypes, they are all feminists and yet they all felt a very profound and deep need to transition. I haven't had that experience so I don't know what that feels like.

I think it would really help if people understood the difference between gender which is imposed by society and gender identity which for most binary trans people at least is an internal sense of themselves as the opposite sex to that assigned at birth.

There is a growing acceptance amongst scientists that gender identity is a legitimate phenomena that has little to do with gender stereotypes and which may even have a biological basis - although I suspect a combination of the biological and the social myself. Much of the understanding of this, as well as neurological research, has come from those working with intersex children. It is now common practice that in the rare cases a child is born of ambiguous sex then clinicians will wait a few years until gender identity emerges before assigning a sex. The reason for this is because they use to make arbitary decisions based on physical/biological characteristics and often got it wrong leading to considerable suffering.

The truth is that very little is known about this, and from a trans perspective it can be difficult to describe. As a child I knew I wanted to be a girl from my earliest memories (I thought all boys secretly did but after a few probing questions to my male frends soon realised that was very far from the case). I had very little interest in 'girls' things though, I thought they were boring, I mean I was hardly the most sporty butch kid either, but my gender dysphoria had nothing to do with stereotypes and was more about who I looked up to and emulated, how I wanted my body to be and just a sense of who I wanted to be. It's very difficult to explain to anyone who never felt like that and to some extent I do understand why some people dismiss it, but believe me, we aren't making it up and it's hardly a barrel of laughs to be trans, especially at the moment.

I don't believe any biological basis for gender identity has been found. Can you share any robust research on this? I don't think people dismiss it tbh just that if it's that hard to describe, maybe it's because 'it's' not there to be described? I.e. maybe if we saw it as a social construct rather than a real, tangible thing, then maybe we could actually get to the nub of what is the problem - which is our social constructs. How I wanted my body to be always feels like a red herring given that most people don't much like their bodies, isn't it? Are you saying something more specific about bodies? maybe 'i want a vagina and breasts'? or 'I don't want a penis'?. How does who I want to be relate to how my body looks? Not really expecting answers as not the point of the thread, but most of the time 'answers' just raise a multitude of more questions and expose (maybe helpfully) a very large amount of assumptions on which the ideology is based.

Just to add to that, I didn't know what trans was growing up. Beyond occassional lurid stories in the tabloid about some RAF pilot or something having a sex change (which fascinated and terrified me) there was no information, no encouragement, no Stonewall, no peer pressure, no internet. And yet here I am.

In early adolescence I thought maybe I must be gay, which was a bit disconcerting because I didn't really fancy boys that much and when I eventually starting having relationships I felt uncomfortable being intimate with both boys and girls, because it was my body that was wrong, not theirs and when I came to terms with that I realised I liked both. I find it somewhat comical when people say these kids are just confused gays/lesbians, I mean seriously, do you think that never occurred to any of us?

The point is, which all you right on feminist seem incapable of understanding, is that our dds are completely sold on this. That if we want to change them, we have to meet them where they are and try and understand what is going on FOR THEM, and LISTEN to where they are.

Very well said @steppemum.

You never considered internalised homophobia?

Well said.

But still, what do we mothers of trans kids know? As we obviously didn't bring them up well enough to "know who they are"

you know I am thinking of inventing a new word, like mansplaining, what women on mn say to parents of trans/non binary kids.
arrrogantsplaining would do it.

The thing is, I really believe all the stuff on the feminist boards about gender and stereotypes etc. I agree. really, I agree.

But you bloody nest of vipers. Coudl you at some point just for 5 seconds try and understand what it is liek for a mother of a trans kid on mn at the moment?

I have been here since 2002. I have debated and discussed and laughed etc etc . But the whole bloody trans debate is the thing that will drive me off. Not because of the different views expressed, but because you are all so bloody sure that your precious little darlings would never be trans because you have done such a good job of bringing your girls up in jeans and playing with cars.

Oh if only were that simple.
The temptation to say Fuck Off is so strong on threads like this

Not saying that is true in every case btw

@HelloThereMeHearties

My child is doing Biology and Chemistry as two of their A Level subjects, so they're way ahead of me on that stuff. And they are well informed, and do not bow to peer pressure.

here we are yet again.

So my dd is bowing to peer pressure? Or is not well informed? Or maybe isn't clever enough to do Biology and Chemistry A level?

Just, for a moment, think of the implications of what you are saying

@foxhat

I don't believe any biological basis for gender identity has been found. Can you share any robust research on this? I don't think people dismiss it tbh just that if it's that hard to describe, maybe it's because 'it's' not there to be described? I.e. maybe if we saw it as a social construct rather than a real, tangible thing, then maybe we could actually get to the nub of what is the problem - which is our social constructs. How I wanted my body to be always feels like a red herring given that most people don't much like their bodies, isn't it? Are you saying something more specific about bodies? maybe 'i want a vagina and breasts'? or 'I don't want a penis'?. How does who I want to be relate to how my body looks? Not really expecting answers as not the point of the thread, but most of the time 'answers' just raise a multitude of more questions and expose (maybe helpfully) a very large amount of assumptions on which the ideology is based.

Here's a review, not sure how to link, it might prompt you to download a file: www.klinefelter.se/wp-content/uploads/KS-Gender-Identity-Biological-Basis-review.docx&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GKsdYPG7BKXcsQLvpKIg&scisig=AAGBfm0mHyMHhjdlI4dk53goDvl97T1j8w&nossl=1&oi=scholarr" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">scholar.google.co.uk/scholar_url?url=www.klinefelter.se/wp-content/uploads/KS-Gender-Identity-Biological-Basis-review.docx&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GKsdYPG7BKXcsQLvpKIg&scisig=AAGBfm0mHyMHhjdlI4dk53goDvl97T1j8w&nossl=1&oi=scholarr

In the abstract it concludes: Conclusions Although the mechanisms remain to be determined, there is strong support in the literature for a biologic basis of gender identity.

As I said, there is much we don't know about this and may well never know but the evidence is certainly starting to suggest that there is more to gender identity than just feelings and stereotypes.

jj1968 thank you for posting that. I've heard very similar things from other trans adults that I know about how they feel. I do think there's a failure of imagination, and of empathy at the moment when trans peoples' lives are considered. It is hard to think about someone else feeling something that you have no reference point for, but it is possible.

@midgedude

You never considered internalised homophobia?

internalised by whom? The parent or the child?

Sorry, despite my ranting this is a genuine question for you.

I have also failed as a parent, despite not reinforcing stereotypes here.

It seems to be quite a trendy thing for teenagers to "think about their gender identity".. As if picking it from a catalogue.

They seem to be settling on a different gender to their sex well into teenagehood when they've had every opportunity to express themselves how they want throughout their childhood. We've very much had the attitude that toys are toys and clothes are clothes and both me and my husband have aspects, as most people do that are gender non confirming.

And yes. I can tell them that they can't really change sex and that other people will be jumping through mental hoops to attempt to respect that. And that I don't want their happiness to hi he on whether people guess correctly or not.. And that I'd much rather they put their energy into feeling at home in their body and being out living life... And I'd really rather be spending money supporting them in their education and hobbies than on therapy to help them figure this shit out.... But that's not where they are mentally and emotionally right now.

*here we are yet again.

So my dd is bowing to peer pressure? Or is not well informed? Or maybe isn't clever enough to do Biology and Chemistry A level?

Just, for a moment, think of the implications of what you are saying*

Er, @steppemum, my child is trans

@steppemum

Well said.

But still, what do we mothers of trans kids know? As we obviously didn't bring them up well enough to "know who they are"

you know I am thinking of inventing a new word, like mansplaining, what women on mn say to parents of trans/non binary kids.
arrrogantsplaining would do it.

The thing is, I really believe all the stuff on the feminist boards about gender and stereotypes etc. I agree. really, I agree.

But you bloody nest of vipers. Coudl you at some point just for 5 seconds try and understand what it is liek for a mother of a trans kid on mn at the moment?

I have been here since 2002. I have debated and discussed and laughed etc etc . But the whole bloody trans debate is the thing that will drive me off. Not because of the different views expressed, but because you are all so bloody sure that your precious little darlings would never be trans because you have done such a good job of bringing your girls up in jeans and playing with cars.

Oh if only were that simple.
The temptation to say Fuck Off is so strong on threads like this

I stopped posting for years because of the things some people say in the trans debates and I know lots of people who left altogether - I hear you steppemum.

whatever is going on in anyones brains- and the verdict is out on it- you cant change sex, many- possibly the vast majority of us dont have this mysterious 'sense of identity' - nor should we be compelled to pretend it and women have a right to say no to men in their spaces.

but yeah if thats what your teen dd has decided- it will most likely be nothing to do with parenting but mostly because of social contagion, autism, trauma, discomfort with sexuality, body-shape, societal expectations etc

Well they're non-binary actually. And do not bow to peer pressure, and know more about biology than I do

@HelloThereMeHearties

*here we are yet again.

So my dd is bowing to peer pressure? Or is not well informed? Or maybe isn't clever enough to do Biology and Chemistry A level?

Just, for a moment, think of the implications of what you are saying*

Er, @steppemum, my child is trans

apologies there hello I missed it was you and that your comment was actually coming from the other side.

but yeah if thats what your teen dd has decided- it will most likely be nothing to do with parenting but mostly because of social contagion, autism, trauma, discomfort with sexuality, body-shape, societal expectations etc

Or, it could be that they are trans.

apologies there hello I missed it was you and that your comment was actually coming from the other side

I hadn't made it clear! D'oh.

But yes, I see a lot of arrogance on this thread and a lot of presumptions. Which are, ironically, pretty small-minded.

4000% rise in teen girls identifying as male in last 5 yrs- large numbers of desisters in their 20s now coming forward talking about the pressure they were under, but yeah, it might be.

@midgedude

You never considered internalised homophobia?

Yes of course I did, I was in anguish about my sexuality for some time becaise I did like guys but I'm probably more orientated towards women. One of the biggest things that upset me as an adolescent about thinking I was gay was that that meant I might never get a girlfriend. Looking back I realise that was a bit daft and should have given me all the answers I needed.

When I finally came to terms with being bisexual my transness didn't go away, Iit didn;t change at all, I was just more at ease with my sexuality and who I fancied.

The thing is, I am really grateful for the many threads on here about trans. I have learnt so much. It was the trans threads which educated me about gender and gave me the questions and the framework to help my dds. It is the trans threads which made me understand that I think many of the girls who are non-binary are stepping out from being a girl because they don't like how society is treated women.

I don;t fundamentally agree with either of my dds. I have been able to work out what I think from those trans threads

But at some point those threads tip over from discussion, and there is a lack of understanding for parents of trans kids. And for trans people themselves.

Some of the things said on the trans threads are unforgivable.

Stop co-opting the experience of intersex people. You know fine well the intersex community have spoken up against the tra’s using their lives experience to argue trans ideology.

Beside its bs to say the doctors wait and see and ‘assign’ a gender. Even people who have intersex conditions have chromosomes that show they are either male or female. A chromosome abnormalities doesn’t change that reality.

But yes, I see a lot of arrogance on this thread and a lot of presumptions. Which are, ironically, pretty small-minded.

Its not arrogance in the most part or small mindedness.
You wouldn't agree an anorexic is fat just because they are convinced they are would you? You wouldn't tell them medication that will alter their lives completely in other ways would make them the weight they want?
When we look at disassociation from ourselves/our bodies there is usually trauma, mental illness , social pressure or all 3 behind whats going on. Dont we owe it to our children to find out whats behind their dysphoria because only then can we support them the best way.