Family row over lending money

[Useranon20]

I’ve name changed for this.

SIL wants to ‘borrow’ money...around £650, towards ‘household bills’.

We DO have the money, but do not want to lend it.

1. Because it certainly won’t be returned
2. We never see this sibling, we are not close
3. Like most of DH’s siblings they are regular cigarette smokers; weed smokers and drinkers and would have more money if they cut out that shit.

One issue is that MIL thinks we are mean and puts a guilt trip on DH, pretty unsuccessfully but it’s annoying.
DH and I both have good jobs and a comfortable lifestyle. The rest of DH’s family struggle. DH came from a poverty stricken background. However, we didn’t get what we have by giving away money.

Secondly, the other siblings (DH’s other brothers and sisters) have very little but still lend to their sister and each other, and they have expressed that they are pissed off that they always have to ‘lend their money’ but we never do ‘our fair share’ and to be honest, this really rubs me up the wrong way.

This is not the first time the family have asked us for money, the most we’ve been asked for is £2500; the least £20. Every time DH says no, no excuse, just no.

It’s starting to cause animosity and it all leaves a sour taste. What would you do?

YANBU. Just keep repeating 'no'.

I had similar for a while with my sister and did used to 'lend' (when I was younger and not confident enough to say no). It was never returned and I don't think it was always spent on what she said she needed it for as she would often ask other family members for money for the same thing

Eventually, I started saying no. If messages persisted as they often did, I wouldn't reply. Took a while but eventually, the message sunk in that I wouldn't lend.

I'd be so tempted to point out something like @Ffsffsffsffsffs calculations on how much they are spending on their "only luxury" every year. Way more than most people's food budgets, maybe even rent!

If they are useless at budgeting it's highly likely neither Cigster (love that! ) or MIL has ever once worked out how much they spend in a year on their habit(s).

Be interesting to see the response to that.

@Useranon20
Unfortunately your are in a no win situation unless you cut contact completely.
My Ex wife’s extended family was like this and every few months we were having to lend money, they all smoked, drank, smoked weed etc, which personally didn’t bother me, but sometimes felt like we were subsidising their habitats.

If you say no, then you will be painted as being mean for not helping someone “not as lucky as you “ at family events, Christmas etc

Getting divorced fixed the issue for me, as not my problem any more !
But it certainly put strain on my marriage, but you do have be consistent as we got told lots of “just this once” and “promise to pay you back” stories, but good luck and be prepared to be made out as being at fault because you won’t lend (give) away your money

This is one of my pet hates - the idea that because you are careful with money, you have spare cash to 'lend' to relatives (or friends).

I have a simple rule, I don't lend money and I only give it in emergencies. Because if you give it once, you will become someone's bank.

Never EVER lend money to friends or family.
If you have it, and you want to GIVE it to them, then do so. That is what being a nice person is all about. And if they learn from you, and are able and want to give it back, then great. If they don't, well, there is no obligation.
But do not put your friends and family into your debt. That is really low behaviour, and it is you and your actions that are causing the problem and fracturing the family, not them for reaching out in their time of need.
Yes, they may be foolish and incompetent at managing their own finances, but you choosing to put them into your debt is downright abhorrent. If you can afford to help them, then help them, but don't make them your slave.

I'd do it for my brother and he would do it for me! But we are close! I wouldn't do it for my brother if I knew he was smoking and drinking etc though!

I always lie about the amount of money we have in real life. We live very frugally and don't have money in cash, it is all tied up in investments. We don't get bothered by the grabby family members and luckily we don't live locally to them so it keeps us out of that drama.

@Babysharkdoodoodood

And just to add in, I gave up fags 5 years ago and I've now got over £6000 in savings.

That’s amazing! Good for you!

Both for kicking the fags AND saving up!

Hi all and thank you for the continued advice and reassurance.

I’ll update and answer a few questions...I’ve changed some of the words and timings to make it more generic and me less identifiable.

Firstly, in answer to some questions, I asked DH and he believes SIL smokes a combination of normal cigarettes, but mostly roll-ups. I don’t know the difference this makes to be honest, but clearly it possibly does make some difference.

SIL has no partner or children. She lives in a shared house. We don’t see her very often, perhaps 1-2 times a year at most.

The family are British, but come from a very disadvantaged background. My husband is the only member of the family who has managed to have a ‘normal’ life. We have a lovely big home, cars, holidays and our children always have lovely things and clothes etc to the point MIL calls us posh. (We are not. We save and go without like most other hardworking people. We never eat out; never have takeaways; We don’t smoke or drink; DH and I never buy ourselves expensive clothes...Florence and Fred or George are our staples. And that’s fine, because we want to spend our money on other things. We believe in waiting for sales for furniture and I scour the internet for vouchers or discount codes before I buy ANYTHING. We’ve never bought brand new cars, always second hand etc)

So anyway, the update: MIL text DH to ask ‘what happened?’ basically.
Taking onboard what has been said here, DH text (something like) the following:

Hi mum,
I’m sorry to hear that ‘Jane’ is struggling financially at the moment. It certainly is a hard time for many people and I wonder if the council or citizens advice are able to advise her?

As I’ve told Jane, I’m afraid that we are not in a position to help now or ever.
I have to not only consider the here and now, but the short and long term future of our family, after all the kids are likely to want to go to university soon and we want to ensure planning for them is our priority. I’m sure you’ll understand.

I’m sorry that my decision has upset you, but it is final.

John.

He deliberately referred to ‘his’ decision rather than ‘us’ as I tend to get the blame otherwise.

I’m hoping that’ll be the end of it now. I doubt it. But I’m grateful for the support as you do question yourself sometimes don’t you.

@Babysharkdoodoodood

That is incredible! Congratulations!

That's a great update. It's good to make it sound so final.

This reminds me of the recent thread where hardworking sibling who helped out her parents was criticized for not sharing her "good luck" "winning the lottery" - she hadn't - with the rest of the family.
But it's easier to rationalize such things as luck than face uncomfortable truths about yourself. Who wants to be told that the magic answer is to work hard and spend sensibly? How grateful would they be if offered budgeting help?
I remember a colleague (volunteer in school) being so distraught about not being able to take the children on any sort of holiday that one of our TA's took pity on her, offering a week in her family's caravan as unglamorous but better than nothing.......she later managed a riotous trip to Majorca.....in a later conversation, I was laughing about an assistant at Harrod's asking me, "Cash or account, Madam?" as if I were in that sort of income bracket.
Formerly distraught friend responded, straightfaced, "But my dear, it's the easiest thing in the world to set up an account at Harrod's!"
I guess it is, it's when the account has to be settled that considerations of income and what you can afford to spend come into play.

Really glad to hear your OH is so on the same page as you, @Useranon20.

If a family member had done their best to dig themselves out of a hole, and it was a case of cash now or they'd lose the roof over their heads, I'd bail them out. However, like you, I wouldn't be inclined to give money to someone who had wasted their cash on weed and needed constant propping up.

It's not helpful to give someone money when their finances as a whole need total overhauling. You would just be enabling bad decisions to continue. Don't feel guilty! You and your OH have made the right call.

Your DH is a man of sense and integrity. :)

@SonjaMorgan

I always lie about the amount of money we have in real life. We live very frugally and don't have money in cash, it is all tied up in investments. We don't get bothered by the grabby family members and luckily we don't live locally to them so it keeps us out of that drama.

Then you are SO not like your namesake Sonja!!!!

But yes I agree that is the way forwards. i had an aunt and uncle (who I have not seen for a good 15 years) invite themselves to stay when we bought our new house which is near a tourist area. My uncle walked into our house, looked around and then started asking it it was rented or owned. Then if we had a mortgage. Then later that evening he tried to push me into investing in his failing business. (failing because he was pinching money from the client account to gamble.... but that is another story).

It;s not like we have a huge house anyway, just it is in an expensive area....

We're in a very similar position.

DHs family have asked for money over the years, from £100 - £20K (I kid you not!).

Yes, we are in a comfortable position. Yes we have some disposable savings. But we have that because we saved. Don't go on beach based holidays every year, buy new cars every 3 years, have a hot tub or weed habit and all sorts of other different lifestyle choices.

DH just says no. He ignores the inevitable "It's all right for you" responses, he just says no.

Me? My DF is a money pit, or would be if I ever said yes. He is absolutely shameless and doesn't hesitate to lay on the guilt trip. He is despicable, a con man and a thief. We ateas LC as we can be given their age, late 70s.

My DSis has borrowed a few times. I usually get an unecessarily detailed accont of why she needs it and how she will pay it back. She has always paid me back! From £500 - £3K, all loans paid back on time. She is now in a better position and won't need to borrow again and I am hapy that giving her interest free loans helped get her sorted - mainly because she fell foul of DFs money grabbing! We would have gifted her money to see her free of him, but she ignored that and paid me back anyway!

So... you can say no and mean it. You can support your DH in saying no, and meaning it. They can all just sod off!

No one 'has' to lend money, so when they say that to guilt trip you it's just a load of rubbish! Maybe you need to say to them 'we're not lending you £650, dont ask us again for money' and refuse to be drawn in to any discussions about it. They're acting like they're entitled to your bank account! Their financial needs are not your responsibility.

@TorchesTorches

I used to do a form of debt counselling with struggling people. Going through their budgets and working out changes that could help. It was smokers and, oddly, horse owners (vet bills etc) who seemed the most in need.

I would continue to say no, and indicate that the only help you will give is thorough budgeting advice, so would need all receipts and bank statements for 6 months (this may put her off asking). Every time she asks for cash, response is "no, and do you have those bank statements"

Did you find smokers were always in denial about how much it cost?

I've given up giving budgeting advice to a friend who constantly needs to 'borrow' money and is forever having unexpected emergencies that require instant cash.

The lockdown has been an eye opener. Every single contact has been about borrowing money. I stopped lending her money years ago but she still persists.

I get so annoyed that she doesn't prioritise the essentials and then relies on/pressurises others to bail her out using her children as pawns.

I would want to know that they are getting proper help for their situation. It must be a debt with a utility company rather than an ongoing bill. So you could suggest she goes to stepchange or Christians Against Poverty.. They will get her on a proper plan to work through her debts. The plan will not have any money on it for weed.

Sounds a lot like some of my family. Let your DH carry on saying no.

In the past I’ve said no to my family or just said we simply can’t afford it. But there are times I’ve also said yes with the expectation of I just won’t get it back. Yes my family chain smokers, drinkers and spend money on total unnecessary crap but I tend to make my decisions on a case by case basis. If my DF had asked I would know things are bad, so would happily give him the money, even if he didn’t ask I’d slip him cash without DM knowing. I’d also put money on their gas and electric meters or buy some shopping for them. If DM asked me for cash I’d probably say I didn’t have it or if she asked for &60 I’d say I have £30 as I know she’d spend it on crap, fags or it would really be for my DB. My DB who I always bailed out of trouble when younger learnt not to ask eventually after I said no outright several times after starting a family, I strongly suspect my other DB may have told him to stop asking me. My other DB has done well for himself financially and like your DH outrights says no, like you he didn’t work to get where he is and provide for his family just to give hand outs to the rest of ours. With our other DB he will give him money if he needs it but he has to work for it first, he once had our DB paint his house and had him do deliveries for his business or clear his warehouse out. He will give him the money as payment for work done, but he won’t give him anything for free.

Superb message from your DH, Useranon20, straightforward and leaving no room for doubt

Just prepare yourselves for hers and the rest of the family's "needs" to get more inventive, with perhaps a few "emergencies" thrown in - but then I'm sure you've already thought of that

Gosh no don't give them any money and quietly phase them out, they sound awful!

Lol. It's like watching an episode of Jeremy Kyle.

Did you get a response at all?