AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

So are you effectively saying that the TRAs are using the fact that there are some people with chromosome abnormalities, I assume intersex but if I'm wrong please tell me, to say that biology should not ever be a determining factor?

Yes, if I interpret your question correctly. Activists, including activist scientists by the way, are doing just that. That is what they mean when they say sex is not binary. But it is, just they are referring to people’s bodies which are still reliably male or female with the use of modern techniques to identify sex. So, activists will also try to being in female/male brain, and even point out of you get estrogen early enough, the pelvis may develop less like a male pelvis at puberty. And many want you to believe that we should accept future medical advances as being viable and build our current laws to accommodate these spurious future advances. Like womb transplants for males.

What do intersex people make of this, isn't it appropriating a disability for the gain of an ideology..

It is wrong to use these medical conditions in this way. Yes.

What benefit is there in denying the lived biological reality of the human race?

It allows males and females to progress the belief they can absolutely change sex. It gives foundation to a delusion. no matter how necessary that delusion is for their own mental health, they need everyone to go along with it.

Sorry for all the (potentially stupid) questions, but the impact of this is huge and I want to ensure I understand it correctly.

The impact is huge. It impacts all aspects of life as a female.

• health for women (including choice of sex of health professional, mixed sex wards because males are males whatever their identity)
• employment and anti-discrimination legislation , (already women’s roles are filled with males. Women’s officer roles at uni and in political parties are particularly attractive to trans identifying males as it leads to more influential political roles)
• safeguarding
• education and educational opportunities
• sports
• language

I am sure I have missed some areas. But anyone who thinks this is about toilets and changing rooms perhaps needs to look at the actual impacts that are already happening.

Already happening and being minimised as ‘only a few people, what does it matter’ or ‘these are women too, for every single purpose and there is no conflict at all...’. I get it. We are all trying to be kinder and live and let live. But where are women allowed to draw the line?

The problem comes when the set of people born male refuse to accept that the set of female people say no to the colonisation of sex protected services and facilities. It is essentially misogynistic to then push for access against our wishes , we do not consent to this and of course the motivation is suspect. We should not be forced to make decisions between who might be the good ones and the bad ones. A blanket policy keeps us all safer.

And winesalot presumably the activist scientists stand to benefit financially in the event that this is the new reality because people will pay, including state healthcare, for these advances in sex change technology?

Womb transplants surely can't be a thing?

I think that a blanket ban is necessary. The weakest and most vulnerable women (abused women, women with mental health issues, women in prisons, girls, etc, etc) may not have the strength or agency to say no.

@lifeturnsonadime

And winesalot presumably the activist scientists stand to benefit financially in the event that this is the new reality because people will pay, including state healthcare, for these advances in sex change technology?

Womb transplants surely can't be a thing?

Womb transplants are happening between women. If you listen to activists there is a Scandinavian doctor ready to trial it for transwomen. Obviously, how that womb might ever then carry a feotus is a whole other experiment like transwomen breastfeeding their infant children.

It all depends on what you consider ethical and whether you consider the child’s needs at all. But we know whose needs come first in experiments like this.

^This is a perfect example of what I hate most about this movement. It is the demand that we all put our critical faculties aside.

The evidence in front of me - beard stubble, penis clearly visible beneath clothing, adams apple, (general sense of entitlement).

The evidence I have in front of me leads me to conclude that this is a man in a dress taking a position that was fought for by women and should be reserved for women.

If I am expected to think that this is a woman taking her rightful place, where is the evidence to support that conclusion? How can I be expected to ignore what to me seems blindingly obvious? If I am expected to swallow this or be forever condemned as a bigot, do you think that perhaps a bit more healthy discourse might be needed for those of us who are really struggling with this??

I want the world to be kinder to everyone, and I am open to a debate about how we can make the world easier for transpeople, but I cannot do that if I am expected to park all my critical faculties in the process and to not be allowed to ask the blindingly obvious questions without me instantly being condemned as anti-trans ergo not worthy of being engaged with. It makes me distrust and resist all of it and it is no way to build allies.^

All of this is spot on.

@MoleSmokes

Winesalot - I hope that if they are reported that their employers see the red flags too - but who knows? These days it might mean a promotion!

How has this academic not lost his job? He is inciting hate and violence against a renowned author with an excellent history of philanthropy. Is this because JK Rowling has become such an icon for women empowerment that this lot can’t live with it?

Sorry I've gone off piste a bit on this thread. But women absolutely have to speak out about this. How does Twitter get away with it? How can they say this is hate speech when threats of rape are not?

Surely private companies should be answerable to allegations of discrimination? Surely it's discrimination to ban a woman for asking this question but not to ban men for threatening rape? Unless they are saying it is not discrimination because the people making the threats are not men but are trans women, and if you 'believe' that transwomen are women then it's not discrimination.

Ugggh my head hurts thinking about this.

presumably the activist scientists stand to benefit financially in the event that this is the new reality because people will pay

Yes, but I think only partly. Partly also because they may identify either as trans or with trans people (even if it is to create a kinder world for all).

Absolutely, new ways of thinking should be considered and debated and discussed. But not used as a political battering ram to destabilize something that will ultimately harm women and children. But not to be used to call people bigots who don’t agree because it is very poorly articulated (the articles have so many holes in their theories they are so weak) but also easily debunked.

Sorry I've gone off piste a bit on this thread.

It is all connected. That is the point. So you haven’t gone off piste at all. Right on target. Keep asking questions. Never stop!!!!!

Womb transplants are happening between women. If you listen to activists there is a Scandinavian doctor ready to trial it for transwomen. Obviously, how that womb might ever then carry a feotus is a whole other experiment like transwomen breastfeeding their infant children.

Discussion here, based on Imperial College "research" to gauge demand for MTF trans people to have womb transplants. Note that the researcher lies to Posie Parker when she asks him whether they are looking at performing womb transplants in males.

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605548-Imperial-College-Womb-Transplant-Survey-Redux

Morning all.

Just a placemark

I think you are asking great questions lifeturnsonadime. It's hard to believe a lot if this isn't it. There will be many lurkers on this thread wanting to know the answers too.

It's also good for the lurkers to see the total lack of coherent argument from the TWAW posters.

92% of us are against banning these kinds of discussions and we are women.

I also am happy with men making awful comments about women on line as you can always just turn over the computer and I would rather we had free speech, not less free speech, even freedom to tell lies. We don't seem to be too keen on freedom in the UK at the moment. We cannot even leave home without checking the law and even before 2020 it was getting worse and worse particularly because the left/Labour chose to come on the side of protecting people's feelings more than allowing free speech which I think was the wrong call.

I am really glad this discussion is happening on this particular board. There must be many, many women who know nothing about this and would not have ventured onto the feminism boards. It scares me that so many parents probably have no idea that their children are being taught all of this in school.
I would not have known any of this without Mumsnet.

lack of coherent argument from the TWAW posters

DialSquare quite. And the regulars never post anything of substance to support their thinking. They simply just point that finger of shame. Even though they even admit that there are limits. Even they believe that some of the changes have the potential to harm women and children. I mean, I have seen some regulars admit that they perhaps have a male perspective on the current cohort of transitioning teenagers that is not representative of what these females are experiencing.

@Xenia

92% of us are against banning these kinds of discussions and we are women.

I also am happy with men making awful comments about women on line as you can always just turn over the computer and I would rather we had free speech, not less free speech, even freedom to tell lies. We don't seem to be too keen on freedom in the UK at the moment. We cannot even leave home without checking the law and even before 2020 it was getting worse and worse particularly because the left/Labour chose to come on the side of protecting people's feelings more than allowing free speech which I think was the wrong call.

Not just women. I have been discussing this with male members of my circle and it is a 100% YANBU so far. It is just that this issue feels so irrelevant to men, they just don’t care much or don’t pay attention the way we do. Unsurprisingly, the ones with more knowledge in it all are the ones who have daughters.

What benefit is there in denying the lived biological reality of the human race?

In order for men to be considered women, there has to be a decoupling of the word woman from their specific biology.

Hence Munroe Bergdorf (a well known transwoman) telling women not to centre their 'reproductive systems' on the Woman's March. And the claims that 'pussy hats' were exclusionary.

Hence lady dick. Hence women not being called women but separated into cervix havers, chest feeders, birthing people, etc. Not a woman, a birthing person.

And hence, unbelievably, FGM being considered exclusionary, so the campaigns to remove the word female from it.

Remove their specific biology from the word woman, and anyone can be one.

Sexism disappears, misogyny doesn't exist. Neither does sex specific crime.

What's the point in sex segregation? Women rape too. And look, here are all the BBC articles talking about the rise in 'women's crime'. See.

Of course, that doesn't stop the very, very sex specific threats being issued. Funny how women's biology is suddenly completely necessary when you need to issue a rape threat or are wishing them a 'traumatic vaginal injury.

Sorry for all the (potentially stupid) questions, but the impact of this is huge and I want to ensure I understand it correctly.

As the OP points out, questions can be very revealing.

IMO nobody should worry that their questions are stupid. Asking questions is very important.

Indeed Wines. When I lurked for quite a few years, those posters actually helped me to see things much more clearly. I saw fully informed posts explaining the issues this will create and then a load of guff in return. Proving there is actually no argument.

For those of you not on Twitter I just want to add a few things.

There are a group of transwoman and transmen who do believe in biological sex and appreciate that their lived experience is different to the sex they are identifying as.
These include Transwomen Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton and transman Buck Angel. TRAs call them truscum.

There are no depravities that some transwomen will not sink to. Warning: triggering

One transwoman ‘lived’ a fake pregnancy and then wanted to pretend they had a stillbirth (to justify why there was no baby)
They discussed this on woman’s pre and postnatal groups and those women who objected were told they were transphobic.

and those women who objected were told they were transphobic.

YY. One woman who had actually had a stillborn baby was thrown out of the group for objecting that it was deeply insensitive and wrong to role play this.

I lost a day's work to thread 1 yesterday and have to make I do some work today. But I do want to make sure that the issue of teaching gender id to children in schools is raised on this thread. If you are interested or concerned about this do look up safeschools alliance and transgender trend. Transgender Trend has a very articulate spokesperson who is also a real supporter of children and young people. It is a brilliant resource for those with questions around the impact of this philosophy on young people.

In order for men to be considered women, there has to be a decoupling of the word woman from their specific biology.

But why do men WANT to be women in the first place? As I understand it very few transwomen actually have gender dysphoria and those that do are covered by existing Equality Laws in the UK.

When I was growing up and on the club scene in the 1990s many men were effeminate, I was very good friends with a man who did (and still does) wear eye liner and has long hair and nails. He never 'thought' he was a woman.

What benefit is there to men who like these things to actually BEING women?