AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

There must be many, many women who know nothing about this and would not have ventured onto the feminism boards

Despite the constant shaming attempts by a few who pop on these threads to complain that the topic has escaped from the feminism boards and tell everyone what a hateful place the feminism boards are, it really isn't like that.

I followed a link to the boards to get a better understanding of just what was happening. After a week of simply reading, I made a few comments and found that I got clear answers and links to follow.

I don't call myself a feminist as I feel I probably don't fit that profile. I come from more of an equality for all point of view but certainly have a clear perspective on women's employment rights and how that should work (a bit of a unionist at heart). I ask how can equality be achieved for all, if one group is valued more than another and their rights are prioritised. I am all for affirmative action, but not at the expense of a group who still needs action.

And we women DO. I feel my daughter is about to enter a work force that is actually no better off than when I entered it 36 years ago, and it seems other aspects of her life are little better too now. That is my driving force.

I still will agree to disagree with some people's view and that is as it should. If people post in good faith, and don't jump in insinuating or blatantly calling people bigoted or phobic, they generally will get answers to questions.

It is always worth noting that it seems that the people who take the approach to shame others for fighting to uphold the rights for women where there is conflict who tend to be the ones who take that same approach when these topics 'escape' onto AIBU.

A good place to start

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

I dont think they do really. How can you be something you can't define , and clearly cant even stand. The solution to this is never to add. Never to fight for specific services or facilities or sports sessions or spaces. But to take away. Remove womens rights to their own spaces. Its like a toddler smashing a toy, the whole " if I can't have it no one can " mentality.

Why would even the most privileged rich influential men be fearful if women being able to get together with out them?

Some will have 'identified' this way since childhood. Who knows the reasons, I suspect they are complex. There is one TW sort of in the public eye who had their dolls taken away as a boy and obviously had to live under strict sex stereotypes, so it's sort of not surprising that this was the way they found to live as themselves.

I think there is a difference though between this - which would be classed as gender dysphoria I think - and the later onset, one of the reasons for which we're not really allowed to discuss on here.

I personally believe that porn has a lot to answer for.

And if their is a decoupling of the word woman from its actual meaning then what are they trying to identify into? Isn't it completely meaningless?

But why do men WANT to be women in the first place?

From what I can gather, there is quite a number who simply don't feel like 'men' or don't want to be 'men'. They feel that they then must be women. Because they can't be anything else as there is no other sex to claim to be.

whatwouldscullydo yes that's what I mean, how can you even identify into something that can't be defined.

I really really am struggling conceptually.

But I do think that this really risks womens rights. Especially in the workplace.

What benefit is there to men who like these things to actually BEING women?

This is a question which is difficult to articulate a response to within Mumsnet talk guidelines.

So winesalot presumably if women can't be defined then nor can men. So how do they know they don't feel like a man if that doesn't have a biological definition?

How does that marry with the fact that many transwomen (biological males) chose to take no action to physically change. I saw that Alex person on the other thread before the picture was taken off.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

What benefit is there to men who like these things to actually BEING women?

This is a question which is difficult to articulate a response to within Mumsnet talk guidelines.

that's a shame because I think that this is the crux of the issue isn't it? Because men don't stand to lose from the removal of sex based protections in the same way that women do.

YY. One woman who had actually had a stillborn baby was thrown out of the group for objecting that it was deeply insensitive and wrong to role play this

Yep and that's exactly what it it. Fucking role play, and women being told to but their very real trauma aside to pander to a male who wants to pretend to have a stillborn.

So how do they know they don't feel like a man if that doesn't have a biological definition?

They can't. It's purely based on their subjective feelings and perception. All they can know is that they don't feel like they think boys/men are supposed to feel (based on sex stereotypes), ergo they must be a girl/woman.

Yes we always get circular definitions.

Claims that our definition of women excludes thise who have had hysterectomy or fertility issues or who have finished menstruating.

Thsres also conflict of the definition of trans too.

Mermaids for example say that it's not about being born in the wrong body. And that its not about stereotypes.

But when you look at the nhs criteria for being transgender it's all stereotypes and wring bodies. You need something like 6 out of the 8 but when you remove those that apply only to stereotypes and tbe body there's not enough left.

We do not have a definition of trans that everyone agrees on. By that I mean charities that advocate fir trans people and the nhs.

Nor is there a definition of woman that excludes males but includes transwomen and includes all women including those who don't have a gender identity they are just women.

Being able to define the very basic terms should surely be of utmost importance befire we can even venture into further discussion

that's a shame because I think that this is the crux of the issue isn't it? Because men don't stand to lose from the removal of sex based protections in the same way that women do.

Yes to both.

For those interested Debbie Hayton (a transwoman) is currently taking a bashing on Twitter for saying that the rights of transwoman should not go over the rights of women.
She is being told she is self hating and not a real transwoman.

I wonder how many transwoman (and transmen) feel the same as her but are scared to speak due to the behaviour of TRAs.

So what are women supposed to 'feel' like then to know they are a woman?

I have 2 children so I know I have female reproductive organs but i've never been very 'girly'.

How are people supposed to know, is there a list of traits that a woman is supposed to have?

There are a group of transwoman and transmen who do believe in biological sex and appreciate that their lived experience is different to the sex they are identifying as.

There is indeed. And they are vilified so I won't add any more names to that list.

In fact, a few of our mtf posting regulars will completely negate this groups experiences and their beliefs. Even though, for instance, Buck Angel was essentially one of the very medicalised transmen. And their experience and many of the negative effects of that medicalisation is still being experienced by recent transitioners.

Yet, if you mention Buck, some of these mtf posters will not even accept Buck's experiences as being completely relevant to today's young teen transitioners who are also female. That is a truly enlightening to see that derision for the truth that doesn't fit their necessary framework .

How are people supposed to know, is there a list of traits that a woman is supposed to have?

We are still awaiting the answer to this. I have yet to see or hear ir read anything that doesn't at some point involve a rejection of clothing or toys or activities...

@Smileyaxolotl1

For those interested Debbie Hayton (a transwoman) is currently taking a bashing on Twitter for saying that the rights of transwoman should not go over the rights of women. She is being told she is self hating and not a real transwoman.

I wonder how many transwoman (and transmen) feel the same as her but are scared to speak due to the behaviour of TRAs.

Many I suspect feel as Debbie and other's do. That is why they cannot speak out. Activists seem to hate them as much as women who ask questions.

If you listen to the detransitioner stories, there seems to be common theme of being expelled from their groups if they even ask a question that causes discomfort or expresses discomfort in their decisions. And remember some of these telling their story have been encouraged to disassociate from their families so they then have no support.

On hearing these stories, I looked at twitter battles a different way. Some of these kids have so much pressure they certainly don't need an adult to point out their disjointed thinking by responding to their aggressive and often abusive tweets with a similar tone. But it is so hard to know which are truly kids and which are not. I ended up with some very interesting twitter discussions after that but came off in the end because it was too draining.

@Whatwouldscullydo

How are people supposed to know, is there a list of traits that a woman is supposed to have?

We are still awaiting the answer to this. I have yet to see or hear ir read anything that doesn't at some point involve a rejection of clothing or toys or activities...

My daughter is autistic and nearly 12. She's definitely a girl but doesn't like traditionally girly things. Mostly its sensory. She wears leggings and boys t-shirts because they fit better for her. She wears boys shorts because the girls ones make her feel uncomfortable in the summer.

She doesn't go to school because there wasn't a school that could meet her needs. By the time she did her last year in the local primary it was clear that her interests were different from her peers.

Goodness knows what she is if the biology of being a girl isn't the determining factor. Thank god she's not aware of any of this.

It is my understanding that a disproportionate number of biological girls seeking transition ( puberty blockers, mastectomy, cross sex hormones) are on the autistic spectrum. I find that very disturbing.

@lifeturnsonadime

In order for men to be considered women, there has to be a decoupling of the word woman from their specific biology.

But why do men WANT to be women in the first place? As I understand it very few transwomen actually have gender dysphoria and those that do are covered by existing Equality Laws in the UK.

When I was growing up and on the club scene in the 1990s many men were effeminate, I was very good friends with a man who did (and still does) wear eye liner and has long hair and nails. He never 'thought' he was a woman.

What benefit is there to men who like these things to actually BEING women?

This article below is very informative. Well worth your attention.

It explains how gender dysphoria in, say, a 13-year-old girl, is completely different to gender dysphoria in a middle-aged father of three.

It also explains what many men call 'gender euphoria'.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

And, as a previous poster has said, this thread also explores your question.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

life

Theres a dr on your tube who told parents that babies/toddlers who threw clips out of their hair or unpopped their baby grows were making a dress amd were sending a non verbal gender message. My dds always took.theor clothes off. Toddlers like to run around in a nappy and to fiddle with poppers etc its normal behaviour.

When you look at stereotypically girly clothes , many have frills or lace etc and are incredibly impractical/itchy/scratchy etc I have a dd with eczema leggings and joggers were a go to fir this reason.

Sensory issues would make so much sense but instead of thinking they just want to be comfortable its a sign they are realky a boy.

A large number of girls in particular nut also the boys turning up at the clinics were actually autistic.

So presumably if women can't be defined then nor can men. So how do they know they don't feel like a man if that doesn't have a biological definition

Good question. Didn't we have a poster or two yesterday who was happy to leave the definition at 'a feeling'? Such an unquestioning approach like this, gives those who wish to set their own definitions complete authority. If that is how that person wishes to live their life, not questioning something that is clearly non-evidenced and so dependant on the good intentions and good nature of others, crack on. If that makes me a pain in the arse because I do expect evidence so be it. Just don't follow the crowd in baying for blood calling people bigoted because they are not prepared to leave their future and their children's future in the hands of those who don't question and don't allow questions.

I don't believe that everyone's intentions are for the good of all, I believe that human's can be altruistic but I have lived enough to see that even altruism can be misguided. Call me cynical. Call me pedantic because I want to make sure all eventualities are covered, including unintentional ones. But keep your slurs to yourself.

And if you are calling people slurs, look up the original definition and check that it actually doesn't apply to you too! I love being called slurs by people who actually fit that term far better than me.....

Life, there is a book called “irreversible damage” which is written by a journalist who was looking into why sudden so many girls, especially girls on the spectrum, suddenly I deny as transgender. It is actually very good I think.

endoftheline

Yes you are correct about that.
There is concern that autistic girls may feel they don’t fit into society and that transitioning may help that disconnect for them.

The Tavistock clinic were chastised for not investigating the link between autism and gender dysphoria I believe. Scientists who want to study it have been told they are transphobic....