AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

The changing room issues really gets me because they're not allowed in with women, hammering home that they will never be a woman.

So? They aren't women?

Are you honestly saying that women need to put all of their feelings of discomfort, anxiety, dignity aside in order to validate a male's desire to be something that he isn't? That just seems like pure misogyny to me?

But I' m not a TRA, and neither are all trans people (someone upthread pointed that out earlier on). So why is my opinion not valid based on a bunch of maniacs on Twitter?

You meet my definition of a TRA - someone who insists on saying that transwomen are women, even when the people you're saying it to have made it clear they don't accept that. At all.

And because they are decent men, they wouldn't want to put women in that situation.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But - surely it's not about them being male. It's about whether they are a 'threat' to you, if you will.

No. It's not just about threat, don't you see that? I don't want males around when I am undressed. My brother is lovely, I don't want him around when I am undressed. I have lovely male colleagues and friends, I don't want them around while I am undressed. My DP is lovely, I don't expect other women to be ok changing in front of him.

I just find that thought process a bit ....odd.

I can't really put my finger on why.

In a mixed changing room, men do shower at the same time as children and we don't have a problem with this (if we do, we get changed privately).
So the millions and millions, if not billions of people whose social and religious belief
preclude mixing with people of the opposite sex
do not exist

White urban millennials forget that THEY are the strange ones

@Impatiens

But I' m not a TRA, and neither are all trans people (someone upthread pointed that out earlier on). So why is my opinion not valid based on a bunch of maniacs on Twitter?

You meet my definition of a TRA - someone who insists on saying that transwomen are women, even when the people you're saying it to have made it clear they don't accept that. At all.

But that's my opinion.

Why should I change it because people tell me that's not what they think? Why does that make me an activisit? I'm not hammering twitter and threatening people and dismissing people. I just have an opinion,or a feeling.

I was happy to backtrack and accept ohter's views but mine are not valid. Why?

I'm not putting people in boxes. You are.

It's not about women and girls second and make feelings. It's about them being equal.
@RootyT00t
You said this ^. I want to see the evidence that says ‘men and women are equal and we can bring down all the wall as that separate them from each other’.

Do you have any evidence that supports this?

Again - men (or womans) feelings can just get fucked because they're trans so who cares.

It's not because they are trans, its because they are male. Why should women's feelings (and remember if you feel discomfort around a transwoman in a female changing room that makes you a bigot) be entirely dictated by how that particular male happens to feel about themselves?

just find that thought process a bit ....odd.

I think you'll find that my thought process is nearer to the majority view than yours. People value single sex spaces.

if a man wanted to gain access to women in a changing room etc, he would fully transition, make sure his appearance was fully female in order to get in there.

Why bother when the ideology is that if you don't believe that someone who looks like a man is a woman if he says he is?

That's the point of self-ID - you don't need to transition to be a woman. You can be a big beardy bloke and still have the right to be treated as a woman. That's why sensible people oppose it.

By the way, you'd be ripped to shreds by TRA's for saying "make sure his appearance was fully female". That's transphobic. As expressed by Danielle Muscato:

@ListeningQuietly

In a mixed changing room, men do shower at the same time as children and we don't have a problem with this (if we do, we get changed privately). So the millions and millions, if not billions of people whose social and religious belief preclude mixing with people of the opposite sex do not exist

White urban millennials forget that THEY are the strange ones

It was me that wrote this I think.

Massive assumption that I'm white.
Bit of a line cross there.

@RootyT00t

What is a woman?

On what objective basis is a transwoman a woman?

Second that question

@Ereshkigalangcleg

just find that thought process a bit ....odd.

I think you'll find that my thought process is nearer to the majority view than yours. People value single sex spaces.

But this isn't about the majority. You keep harking back to right and wrong and majority.

The majority of people thinking something doesn't mean that they're all right and I'm wrong (unless it's unilaterally wrong).

I don't deny single sex spaces - I said upthread i prefer that.

But I would feel no differently about a man I don't know than a woman I don't know.

You would feel no different even though logic tells you that the situation is very different ?

@BarbaraofKent

Again - men (or womans) feelings can just get fucked because they're trans so who cares.

It's not because they are trans, its because they are male. Why should women's feelings (and remember if you feel discomfort around a transwoman in a female changing room that makes you a bigot) be entirely dictated by how that particular male happens to feel about themselves?

But it isn't.

It's not the vast majority of males. It's trans people.

Why should women's feelings trump trans? Why should trans feelings trump women's? Why should male feelings trump women and vice versa? They shouldn't. The solution should be EQUAL. But i said that before, and I'm naive.

But I would feel no differently about a man I don't know than a woman I don't know.

Really? Honestly?

So if you had to walk down a dark alley with either a woman you didn't know or a man you didn't know and you had to pick one, that would be a difficult choice for you? I can help you out - the statistics say, pick the woman!!!!

@midgedude

You would feel no different even though logic tells you that the situation is very different ?

No, genuinely, and I'm sure people will be on to tell me that I'm lucky enough to never have been violated by a male (not actually true) or that statistically I'm much more at risk by a man.

I feel safer with men than I don't with women. That's based on MY life experience.

So the millions and millions, if not billions of people whose social and religious belief
preclude mixing with people of the opposite sex
do not exist

Quite. It's like being on some weird, uncomfortable, overfamiliar 70s naturist holiday. If I'm an uptight prude rather than a cool girl, I don't care.

It seems a fair question. I hope these communal things will be a thing of the past soon. Make them all separate cubicles and stop dividing people into groups of pink and blue. Fairer for everyone, surely.

It's not the vast majority of males. It's trans people.

What is a transwoman? And at what objective point does a male who identifies as a woman cease to 'be male'?

Also, while we are here as you haven't answered yet, what is a woman?

Irs not about women's feelings trumping trans feelings

It's about creating a society where all people are equally respected

Irrespective of feelings but mediated by fact

Also there is no such thing as misandry. There is no equivalent of misogyny.

Misogyny isn't just some bloke somewhere hating women. It's a whole societal structure which has actually created that hate and sustains and underpins the hate. Over centuries the hatred was bolstered and supported by all the institutions and laws legitimising and validating that hate and in some cases, actually requiring the hate as your social and religious duty.

Misandry, otoh, is just some powerless woman somewhere hating a man. There is no societal underpinning and reinforcing of that hatred.

There's just no comparison.

Why should trans feelings trump women's?

Quite. So can you tell me why we are expected to accept that they do?

@BarbaraofKent

But I would feel no differently about a man I don't know than a woman I don't know.

Really? Honestly?

So if you had to walk down a dark alley with either a woman you didn't know or a man you didn't know and you had to pick one, that would be a difficult choice for you? I can help you out - the statistics say, pick the woman!!!!

In that scenario, I'd choose the woman.

If I was being followed home (as happened the other night) and I needed help or to be seen with someone, I'd pick a man.

My father once said he didn't feel comfortable to go over and help a woman who had passed out in the street in some state (and left) because he was worried how that woman would feel and how it would look. I went instead.

But what an awful, horrible way to think. We say these things and then we wonder why males feel like this (but boohoo men, tough shit, right).