AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question - Thread 2

[Thewithesarehere]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask.

Let’s vote with our AIBU.

Thewithesarehere

Sorry, afternoon home learning lessons were calling so I have only just seen the question you asked re Swim England.

I think these guidelines may now have been withdrawn, but it was guidelines aimed at increasing trans participation in swimming (which of course is a good thing, exercise being good for health, etc), but which basically said that if anyone was unhappy with a male bodied person in the women's changing room (or vice versa in the men's) then that centre user needed to be educated out of their incorrect view.

And also that if a centre offered single sex swimming sessions, then anyone trans should go to the one that matched their gender identity - hence the need to be ready to educate females who saw males in their women only sessions.

There was also hypocrisy on what it was suitable to wear in the pool.

You may need to do some education work with other centre users who may be concerned when sharing a space with a trans person, especially if a trans customer looks to have different physical characteristics to the gender they are identifying with i.e. a male to female trans customer who has not had top or bottom surgery may still look like a male to others* and conversely with female to male trans customers.

*like the person in the deleted picture from thread one, perhaps?

There was a thread about it at the time and I think it may have been the start of Man Friday, but I could be wrong.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3176098-I-am-about-to-ID-as-a-man

Looking at it now it looks quite tame, but it was enough to hook me in. I'll go and catch up with the rest of the thread now - if the question has been answered in the meantime, I apologise for repeating.

Women Only Shortlists
now include Men
labour.org.uk/about/how-we-work/nec-statement-women-shortlists-womens-officers-minimum-quotas-women/

@Impatiens - indeed. That every single Labour woman MP did not support her is disgraceful. I hope every one of them reads this and it really sinks home.

We have crossed 500 votes, with an overwhelming YANBU!

I was a staunch Labour voter but I'm feeling completely lost now. I'm shocked at some of what I've read on here today, and that's despite having tried to understand the debate over recent months.

I see there is another thread in AIBU but no poll. Calling for "reasonably minded women"

@Whenwillow the shock is appropriate. Whatever one thinks. It is the stealth and the silencing that is the most shocking thing to me.

@JoodyBlue that is disgraceful but worst of all to me is the total lack of response from Keir Starmer. He's the leader of the party - again, the party of Jo Cox - and he hasn't got the backbone/common decency to stand up and tell these creeps to leave her alone or get out. It's totally unacceptable.

[quote Impatiens]**@JoodyBlue that is disgraceful but worst of all to me is the total lack of response from Keir Starmer. He's the leader of the party - again, the party of Jo Cox - and he hasn't got the backbone/common decency to stand up and tell these creeps to leave her alone or get out. It's totally unacceptable.[/quote]

Yes. #LabourLosingWomen

[quote Impatiens]**@JoodyBlue that is disgraceful but worst of all to me is the total lack of response from Keir Starmer. He's the leader of the party - again, the party of Jo Cox - and he hasn't got the backbone/common decency to stand up and tell these creeps to leave her alone or get out. It's totally unacceptable.[/quote]
Yeah - I really don't understand what is going on there. I feel he is trying to push it all under the rug. The more he does that the more the rug puckers. But yes he needs to find a backbone. No leader should let one of their team be as bullied as he has allowed Rosie to be.

YANBU, at 92%. I genuinely want to know what can WE (women) do? How do we stand up for women's rights, without being shut down or accused of the speech? I'm actually seriously scared about the magnitude of all this.

I'm not a vagina owner, I'm a woman. I support trans women's need to feel accepted and comfortable but absolutely not at the expense of women.

What next, a predatory adult male identifying as a 6 year old child to get a place in a school?

Like others I know of, I have written to Keir Starmer about this, more than once and got no reply. My Labour MP sent a pitiful reply which didn't mention women until the end and failed to reply to my response asking for details and clarification. I am repeating myself from another thread but these female MPs who were forced through thanks to women only shortlists and who are now acting like sex isn't immutable are a disgrace. There are reasons women only shortlists were implemented and they know it.

I think someone needs to take the lead to fight for trans people's rights as trans people, that doesn't involve lying about science, coercion, silencing, intimidation, requirements to believe an ideology etc. To ensure safety, fairness, no discrimination, hell even a trans shortlist in the Labour Party if they think that's required (although I always come back to a concern that disability rights are one of the silent losers of much of the current focus on trans. Are there more people with disabilities than there are trans people?).

This isn't specifically women's job though, apart from those who are transmen. And it wouldn't have the handy side effect of consolidating sexist homophobic stereotypes and destroying safeguarding so I suspect some of the more nefarious supporters of the current trans rights ideology would melt away (NB to mods I am not implying these supporters are trans, in fact IME they are often not).

I genuinely want to know what can WE (women) do?

All we can.

-Including keep on talking, keep on reading, keep on listening with an open mind.
-Write letters to organisations, to schools, to who ever needs to receive them. And keep on it. If you need inspiration, write to Baroness Nicholson who always needs help in contacting organisations to untangle policies that have been based on misinterpretation of the Equality Act 10 by Stonewall and other lobby groups.
-Support the court cases when you can, in anyway that you can.
-submit your views when the Government asks for them. Just the FWR threads to see what is active at the moment. Use templates sparingly, and for inspiration. We have learned that the government is wary of 'spam' submissions.

There is lots to do. Some of our actions will not produce results when we would like them, but the more the Government, politicians, organisations, corporates know that we have something to say about these issues and it is done in a way that is respectful and focused on the impacts on women and children, well... it is a long game we are playing.

I think someone needs to take the lead to fight for trans people's rights as trans people, that doesn't involve lying about science, coercion, silencing, intimidation, requirements to believe an ideology etc.

Unfortunately, the trans people who attempt it are liable to be branded 'truscum' and also banned from SM. That's also an utter disgrace.

IME, many men are quite happy to push transwomen into the 'not a man' box with women. In that respect, of course transwomen are women! Because neither of them are men, silly!

Thank you @Winesalot

I have always been happy to have representational 'shortlists' for different groups. What I object to is when these positions are taken from women unequally. When you can have a 75% representation of males on a supposed 'gender' balanced board as we have in one instance already, it is poor representation.

Yet, those who advocate that women are anyone who feels like one, don't give a toss about this unequal representation. Not sure when the realisation of what they are doing will happen. It is quite unsettling when you see women abandoning their representation rights in this way. Very discordant.

If gender identity means that for example persons of male sex can access the female sex provision, doesn’t that exclude and therefore discriminate against all the other males?

On what actual basis beyond subjective feelings are we giving some people additional provisions, spaces and services and excluding others? What criteria will be used?

If other males for example, who feel uncomfortable using male facilities (and many do for lots of reasons), want to choose the female ones, what reason would there be to exclude them?

Confusing. I’d be interested to know how we parse this in legal and practical terms.

Perhaps that’s why it’s easier to do away with sex based terms, services and legal protections altogether.

@Winesalot

I genuinely want to know what can WE (women) do?

All we can.

-Including keep on talking, keep on reading, keep on listening with an open mind.
-Write letters to organisations, to schools, to who ever needs to receive them. And keep on it. If you need inspiration, write to Baroness Nicholson who always needs help in contacting organisations to untangle policies that have been based on misinterpretation of the Equality Act 10 by Stonewall and other lobby groups.
-Support the court cases when you can, in anyway that you can.
-submit your views when the Government asks for them. Just the FWR threads to see what is active at the moment. Use templates sparingly, and for inspiration. We have learned that the government is wary of 'spam' submissions.

There is lots to do. Some of our actions will not produce results when we would like them, but the more the Government, politicians, organisations, corporates know that we have something to say about these issues and it is done in a way that is respectful and focused on the impacts on women and children, well... it is a long game we are playing.

All of this - if you read the Feminist board here regularly, there are frequent suggestions for actions we can take. I guess elected bodies don't act/maybe can't act without information from constituents. The women's voice needs to get louder.

you have to wonder about that 8%

sorry - @Wines said that already :)

@Glinner

you have to wonder about that 8%

There are a few regulars who trawl through FWR looking for anything they can report or link to twitter. I have noticed one or two that scuttle around Mumsnet starting threads about threads and badmouthing other posters, usually longstanding MNers. I suppose they could account for some of the 8%.

Totally agree with what StealthPolarBear said.

What next, a predatory adult male identifying as a 6 year old child to get a place in a school?

Not quite the in schools part, sorry for the Daily Mail link, but they are one of the few who detail how the individual likes their name to be pronounced, which is significant.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3356084/I-ve-gone-child-Husband-father-seven-52-leaves-wife-kids-live-transgender-SIX-YEAR-OLD-girl-named-Stefonknee.html