To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

@JoodyBlue

OP what is a "reasonably minded woman?"

Good question. I reckon the answer is a compliant one.

But is that the fault of trans women? No.

It's not the fault of the many decent men out there either, that it is almost overwhelmingly their sex class who carry out these sorts of crimes, qbut we still don't let those men into female spaces?

It's not women's role to shelter and validate males who, for whatever reason, don't want to use male facilities and provision. We have our spaces, they are ours.

It's like the job of stopping abusers and rapists is so big that people are instead finding someone else to blame.

No one is blaming transwomen. Women are just saying that one of the effective ways that we can try and keep ourselves safe, in the face of male violence, is to ensure that single sex spaces stay single sex. We can't tell who are the genuine transwomen and who are predatory males, so the only thing we can do is say 'no' to all males, however they identify.

@Godimabitch the bathroom issue is one issue in this discussion. But there are so many other problems. How we speak to children about sex and gender. How we allow everyone to contribute to a full and balanced discussion. How we request our politicians to stop throwing around soundbites instead of debating properly. The bathroom issue really is the least of it.

No.

No.

I know nice trans people, and nice non-binary people too. Sadly if they could see inside my head they'd probably never speak to me again. Because while I wouldn't mind in the least sharing bathroom facilities with them, or for that matter my male friends and family members, that isn't the point here. It's males who are the risk, and as we don't know who the 'nice' ones are, women have no option to be wary of them all. Aside from which, my desire to share my facilities with my trans sisters does not give me the entitlement to hand over other women's rights into the bargain. They are not mine to give away.

Because as far as the trans vs. women's rights debate is concerned - and make no mistake these are separate groups with separate needs this is about all or nothing. It's about the collective, not individual people. No concession is good enough. No respecting names and pronouns is good enough: no, I have to announce my own despite my personal discomfiture with that; I'm expected to erase the name 'woman' and reduce myself to a discrete serious of body parts. I'm a gestational parent. A 'bleeder'.

No.

Women are saying no. And men really don't like that: hence the backlash and the rape threats. You cannot debate anything seriously, reasonably, or productively on that kind of level.

@MaudTheInvincible - yes, the usual silencing tactic, call her unreasonable or emotional or irrational or hormonal, or my personal favourite - hysterical! :)

Series. Not serious. (Actually, I was serious).

I'll stop digging. The language contortionism required to engage in this debate is mindblowing at the best of times.

If the issue is safety a third space would suffice. It doesn't. No one is campaigning for it.

The issue with third spaces is that they can't be specifically for trans people as that would draw attention to them which could ( and certainly would be claimed) make them an easy target

So unisex options and single sex options

Well, it's the fault of some transwomen, given they have the same offending pattern as other men, specific examples are sadly only too easily available

... and yes, it's possible to consider protection of single sex spaces as the same campaign as that against all other male violence.

Semantics. The third space has always been suggested to be uni sex or open to all with appropriate cubicles etc.

And has always been rejected as denying the womanliness if transwomen.

And no, until very recently transmen weren't asked or at all vocal about their requirements!

Way upthread I saw a comment that is often made- that changing isn't an issue as the poster hasn't seen a communal changing room for years.

Nor had I until DD joined swimming lessons- they are usually run at schools which obviously have communal changing.

And have a wide age range eg 4- 70! From toddlers to older instructors and loads of eg 14-18 yo swimming.

Self ID absolutely would be an issue in those circs. And it's common- loads of schools have their facilities used for all sorts from swimming to gymnastics to martial arts etc etc

Just because a person doesn't come across it doesn't mean it's not happening.

Children also take themselves off to these clubs from youngish, they are usually local.

The issue with third spaces is that they can't be specifically for trans people as that would draw attention to them which could ( and certainly would be claimed) make them an easy target.

They don't have to be specifically be for trans people. They can be shared by all those women who claim they don't have a problem sharing facilities with trans people and on that basis are happy to give away other women's rights without their consent.

They can be used by families when together, and I would use them in circumstances when I was out with my young son. They could be used by those who needed carers of the opposite sex to be with them and help them.

The world, the centre and the sun doesn't have to begin and end with the trans issue. A third space could be beneficial for a variety of reasons, which in turn would benefit them. But they don't want this. They are clamouring to violate the boundaries of women, and nothing else will suffice. We are there to validate their 'identity' and to hell with our dignity, privacy and safety.

This form of activism is not one that's accustomed to compromise. No matter how much they tell you to 'be nice', unfortunately you'll get nowhere taking this stance.

But huge numbers of people have said that they would use third spaces in solidarity with their trans siblings so how would it be outing?

Anyone who doesnt care about single sex spaces can use a third space.

From the OP: Anyone agree?

No. I don’t agree. I’m reasonable minded. Just don’t want penises in the Ladies (or any other women’s space), I don’t want to become a subcategory of my own sex class, and I don’t want kids of either sex being subject to experimental treatment with permanent effects and no research follow up. I don’t want a sexist retrogressive agenda to be accepted in our public institutions instead of reality. either.

It's another No from me OP.

Women are not human shields for male violence.

Check out Twitter links on some of the posts on FWR, and you will see the sort of things women are dealing with.

It's absolutely terrifying.

So, no.

It is worth being prepared to talk
It is worth making suggestions that seem reasonable, such as sex neutral third spaces that can be used by many people
Let others say they are not acceptable suggestions

I kind of feel like these are other people’s problems to sort out for themselves. I don’t need to fight their battles. Happy to stand up for all biological women (however they identify). Let men (however they identify) create new spaces for themselves. Not take them from women and occupy them.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

The issue with third spaces is that they can't be specifically for trans people as that would draw attention to them which could ( and certainly would be claimed) make them an easy target.

They don't have to be specifically be for trans people. They can be shared by all those women who claim they don't have a problem sharing facilities with trans people and on that basis are happy to give away other women's rights without their consent.

They can be used by families when together, and I would use them in circumstances when I was out with my young son. They could be used by those who needed carers of the opposite sex to be with them and help them.

The world, the centre and the sun doesn't have to begin and end with the trans issue. A third space could be beneficial for a variety of reasons, which in turn would benefit them. But they don't want this. They are clamouring to violate the boundaries of women, and nothing else will suffice. We are there to validate their 'identity' and to hell with our dignity, privacy and safety.

This form of activism is not one that's accustomed to compromise. No matter how much they tell you to 'be nice', unfortunately you'll get nowhere taking this stance.

Exactly, a third space doesn't mean a big red flashing light with the word trans on it, it should be a space that those who have no issue in mixed sex spaces can use, dads with daughters can use, mums with sons can use, people with opposite sex carers, no reason for trans people to feel singled out or othered it's an additional space that would benefit everyone and end this whole issue. Single sex spaces remain single sex, boundaries intact, no-one disadvantaged.

As many others have said, self ID opens the door to those who would take advantage of it, like the individuals in this article. Apologies that the article uses the hideous term "child pornography"

thepostmillennial.com/sex-offender-who-identifies-as-young-girl-reveals-just-how-dangerous-self-id-is

No one is blaming transwomen. Women are just saying that one of the effective ways that we can try and keep ourselves safe, in the face of male violence, is to ensure that single sex spaces stay single sex. We can't tell who are the genuine transwomen and who are predatory males, so the only thing we can do is say 'no' to all males, however they identify.
This.

It’s actually quite funny how the discussion has so conveniently moved and become defensive: ‘I don’t want to give up my safe space’.
What about women sports? Girls guide? Corporate positions? What about the impact on dissemination of healthcare information?
What about the complete disregard of scientific knowledge and data?
What has it come down to toilets only?

It's not down to toilets for me. I don't want to give up anything and move over and give it to men who consider themselves women. Not a single thing. And I don't care if that hurts their feelings. Even if they are the nicest, most gentle person you could imagine, they don't care about hurting my feelings by claiming they know what it's like to be a woman, so why exactly should I care about theirs? They need to campaign for their own spaces, their own everything. That's what women had to do.

@wellthatsunusual
I didn’t mean you. I was talking about this discussion as a whole.