To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

It's going to be interesting when forensics finds a body in the future, take skull measurements, check eye sockets and pelvic bones and determine it was the body of a woman. Put out the information, search missing person databases, etc. And can't locate the missing person as it was a TransMan.

2 women a week are murdered

Getting nearer to an average of 3 women per week in this last year, as a result of lockdown in the UK.

If this were black men, or transwomen, there'd be rioting in the street.

the virulent transphobes on here never will. I honestly do not think that womens rights figure very high on their agenda, they just really hate trans people

Classic DARVO from @DimidDavilby - reverse the logic.

It comes to something when women concerned about their legal sex-based rights enshrined in UK law, are called "transphobes" for being so.

I saw the stick that JH and KIS get when they list all the murdered women /post about the latest ride.

Me. I am. Right here 🙋‍♀️
Anyone seen a safe space for that convo?

@QueenoftheAir

the virulent transphobes on here never will. I honestly do not think that womens rights figure very high on their agenda, they just really hate trans people

Classic DARVO from @DimidDavilby - reverse the logic.

It comes to something when women concerned about their legal sex-based rights enshrined in UK law, are called "transphobes" for being so.

this DARVO indeed

@bourbonne
My take is that. We actually need to address rape and rapists, rather than essentially put someone else in danger to protect ourselves.
The way we teach girls and women to protect themselves is actually "make sure he rapes someone else." In schools, rather than teaching girls to cover up, we should teach boys to look away. We should teach boys to respect girls, to view them as equals. And we should punish men that dont, men that harass women in the workplace should be sacked, men that grope women should actually be punished. Rapists get away with it the vast majority of the time. That's our problem. Our real problem is that we allow rapists to exist. Not that some men want to be women.

And men dont often rape because they find the women irresistibly beautiful, it's about power, humiliation, pain, not lust. Trans women absolutely are at serious risk, they have a bigger target on their back, have less protection, and feel far less comfortable going to the police when something happens to them.

Trans women are at risk from men (also just to be clear, they are at considerably less risk than women by miles) so why is this women's problem to solve?

@QueenoftheAir

the virulent transphobes on here never will. I honestly do not think that womens rights figure very high on their agenda, they just really hate trans people

Classic DARVO from @DimidDavilby - reverse the logic.

It comes to something when women concerned about their legal sex-based rights enshrined in UK law, are called "transphobes" for being so.

So the logic is that everyone on here, talking about women's rights and how they are campaigning for them, are lying, to disguise the fact that we have an irrational hatred for one particular protected group.

'The only conclusion must be that these women are irrational and don't care about their own rights'.

Gosh. The mental acrobatics it must take to ignore literally everything set out repeatedly, including pointing out the disgusting homophobia displayed by some of those trying to take our rights - and conclude that it's women being irrational but also don't care about our own rights for some reason.

I assume QueenoftheAir is fine with homophobia, if it's irrational and bigoted to fight against it.

Oh god I'm sorry QueenoftheAir - it's DimidDavilby 's post not yours!

god

We don't address rape and rapists though by teaching males it's OK to override boundaries and consent. In fact I'd say that will have the opposite effect.

And that's what allowing males onto womens spaces does.

It tells males their needs are more important than the needs if women.

Ho

Hi OP

No.

@QueenoftheAir

2 women a week are murdered

Getting nearer to an average of 3 women per week in this last year, as a result of lockdown in the UK.

If this were black men, or transwomen, there'd be rioting in the street.

But is that the fault of trans women? No.

It's like the job of stopping abusers and rapists is so big that people are instead finding someone else to blame.
Like a kid that's abused at home bullying their sibling because they can't take their parents on.

We need to address the actual issue, if people put as much energy and anger into fighting for higher conviction rates for rapists, tougher sentences for wife beaters, abusers, rapists, paedophiles and better education for boys to stop them turning into these things then we might actually get somewhere.

As I said on another thread, I'm always wanting that reasonable discussion - but so far I haven't found a single person on the trans activist side capable of having one.

We are doing all those things.

And fighting fir single sex spaces

@Godimabitch I agree that rape is not about men being overcome by lust for a beautiful woman, but as you say it's about power. A man can easily overpower me. I doubt he'd like to try his luck with a trans woman. But also, yes, I do doubt that there are as many men as willing to have sex with a transwoman as with a woman. I don't think we're interchangeable categories to rapists. But I'm speculating about that.

I disagree that I am putting someone else at danger to protect myself. Transwomen display similar patterns of behaviour and criminality to other men, and they are as strong. If they are in danger, I am not the one who has put them there. I am just a woman wanting to use the women's facilities with other women, as was originally intended.

None of this is mutually exclusive with addressing male violence and teaching men not to rape (if such a thing is possible... To be honest I think the kind of rapist who will attack women - or transwomen - in public spaces is beyond the scope of education and will have been from an early age, but that's not something I'm qualified to opine on).

But is that the fault of trans women? No.

Well it's not the fault of women if men assault people who were born male but now identify as women. So why are women held responsible for sorting that out?

We need to address the actual issue, if people put as much energy and anger into fighting for higher conviction rates for rapists, tougher sentences for wife beaters, abusers, rapists, paedophiles and better education for boys to stop them turning into these things then we might actually get somewhere.

Completely agree. And when we have successfully stopped all male violence let's have that conversation. In the meantime let's protect women from male violence.

At the moment the conversation goes:

-Name calling
-Refusal to let people with different views have a say by trolling, protesting, preventing
-Pressure on work places to terminate people's employment if they hold an alternative view
-'A veneer' of a reasonable argument that causes rational and intelligent people to turn on their 'friends, people who have give them massive opportunity, people they know'.

• A mass delusion and confusion regarding perception and evidence based fact

-Unelected, vocal and agressive people are trying to change the laws through force and speed and bypass all logical and reasonable routes because of all of the above.

How is this conversation supposed to go? How would you suggest your child conversed with someone who acted like this in their classroom?

Does pointing out this out based on 'the evidence of the behaviour observed' make me a TERF?

What you are advocating for Godimabitch is that women and girls put themselves in even more danger and act as human shields and/or collateral damage for transwomen.

You allow some transwomen in, you allow all males in it is that simple. No-one is allowed to ask if a transwomen has a GRC therefore any man can glibly claim they identify as a woman and access is theirs.

The simplest solutions are the best, no wriggle room, no ah but what about, and the simple solution is spaces segregated on the basis of biological sex only with an additional third space for those who do not wish to use the space allocated for their biological sex.

@JoodyBlue

OP what is a "reasonably minded woman?"

A reasonably minded adult human female?

How big is your bathroom? I can barely bath the baby in mine, let alone pile trans and non binary adults in it. It must be all knees and elbows with everyone trying to immac and shit in there all at once.

I think you may mean toilets as we are in the UK though.
And no, I'm not handing over hard won rights to people who won't return the favour and beeee kiiinnnd.

I'm happy to advocate for decent mental health help in this country for everyone, as it really is shockingly poor.

Loads of different types of men are at risk from other men.

Gay men, effeminate men, men with disabilities, men who look different eg geeky or goth. Men who are small and slight.

The argument then is that they must all come in with the women. Because otherwise women are selfishly putting them at risk to protect themselves.

@wellthatsunusual

But is that the fault of trans women? No.

Well it's not the fault of women if men assault people who were born male but now identify as women. So why are women held responsible for sorting that out?

Because we're women so we must apparently knuckle down and just beee kiiiiiind.

Be kind and give away our protections in law. Prioritise males otherwise we're unreasonable bigots.

Fuck that shit.