To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently

Which is strange, because the wording of your post and your use of the Terf slur suggests that you don’t have a clue what the issues surrounding single sex spaces are.

Anyone who did understand would be unlikely to either use that word or to attempt to silence women (because, let’s be honest, you haven’t written in to Pink News or Stonewall with this opinion, have you?) by telling them to be kind. Nor would they be daft enough to think that because they know some lovely trans people, that should be enough to convince women to shut up, roll over and give up our sex based rights.

And what do you mean by ‘until recently’?

[quote Thewithesarehere]@wellthatsunusual
I didn’t mean you. I was talking about this discussion as a whole.[/quote]
I know it wasn't aimed at me

I was just thinking about where I draw the line and when it comes down to it I draw the line away over there in the distance.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?
Transwomen (and transmen) need to accept that they cannot change their sex. That is an undeniable fact. They can choose their gender, but they cannot change their sex.

They need to stop trying to erode the rights of biological women to have single sex spaces that make them feel safe.

If they do not wish to use the toilets for their sex then the amicable solution is to have toilets as follows:

1. Women
2. Men
3. Transwomen
4. Transmen

Surely that is the best answer because everyone will feel as safe as possible.

It seems to me that transwomen do not find this acceptable. (I haven't heard much about or from transmen). They want to use the toilets and changing rooms of the sex they have decided they wish to be. They seem to see it as denying their gender. They are not being denied the right to be whatever socially-constructed gender they choose. We are just denying them the right to use our single sex spaces because it is our right to have single sex spaces and their sex is not that of a woman.

Personally speaking I don't really care that much about bogs, but I can see why they're important. It really is a bit tedious that the discussion gets narrowed to that topic all the time but it is an example of a single-sex space that everyone's familiar with and has opinions on 'the rules' so I guess it is what it is.

It's the removal of women as a category and the total denial that sex exists and sometimes it matters that is the big picture for me. And the homophobia and sterilisation of children.

@Thewithesarehere

It’s actually quite funny how the discussion has so conveniently moved and become defensive: ‘I don’t want to give up my safe space’. What about women sports? Girls guide? Corporate positions? What about the impact on dissemination of healthcare information? What about the complete disregard of scientific knowledge and data? What has it come down to toilets only?

Because people are responding to this in the OP's opening post:

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

No, it's not all about toilets and changing rooms but they represent the thin end of the wedge, the TRA argument would be if TW are viewed as woman enough to access single sex toilets and changing rooms, then they are women enough to access all other spaces and services for women therefore the NO has to start at the most basic of facilities in order for it to be upheld across the board.

No men, however they identify, are eligible for anything set aside for women.

BeansMeansWines

If only men were tolerant of gender non conforming men and didn’t scare them out of their spaces.

That’s your answer. Men need to accept men in lipstick.

This is the answer.

The awful thing is, so many women used to be very supportive of trans women. Be kind, it's very difficult. Especially women who were part of the LGB movement, sometimes for years.

The idea that sex role/ gender (with its old meaning) was oppressive for both sexes. Putting us into little boxes and giving little leeway. Feminists in particular have fought this for years, many are gender non conforming which is why they noticed their place in the world, assumptions about them, and came to feminism in the first place.

We could have worked together to increase acceptance of trans women and men, and gender non conforming people in general. Loads of women would have really got behind that.

The demands though got more and more extreme. Self ID? That may change day to day? Use whatever facilities you feel most comfy in? Accept that anyone is what they say they are despite any evidence to the contrary? Sports, prisons, schools. Self ID?!!

Sex doesn't exist.. it's not binary... It's irrelevant for humans... Gender is all that matters and no one can see it...

First trans women said we're women call us women. You are cis.
Then actually I'm not just a woman I'm female. Always have been.
Women and non trans women. Women and cis women. Cervix owners, menstruators, ovulators. Non prostate havers.

Just no. And so women who would have been onside eventually have enough and say the door needs to be closed to all. Male and female are things, and they are important. And that is where the line is.

There was never any engagement with women was there, negotiation. Empathy.

Just give us what we want or choke on a dick/ die in a fire.

And the 'arguments' boil down to, give us this because we say so. None of it stands up to any scrutiny whatsoever.

@wellthatsunusual

It's not down to toilets for me. I don't want to give up anything and move over and give it to men who consider themselves women. Not a single thing. And I don't care if that hurts their feelings. Even if they are the nicest, most gentle person you could imagine, they don't care about hurting my feelings by claiming they know what it's like to be a woman, so why exactly should I care about theirs? They need to campaign for their own spaces, their own everything. That's what women had to do.

Agree. Just imagine if TRA's had used a fraction of the time and energy they use against women for campaigning and fighting for spaces and services for themselves what they could have achieved. The fact they haven't and won't says it all about what the real aim of their agenda is.

It never seems to work the other way.

Man Friday made this point when they identified as men to swim in the Men's Pond at Highgate. The Council has a Men's Pond, a Mixed Pond and a Ladies Pond. Transwomen are now allowed in the Ladies Pond. They called the police on the Man Friday participants.

Primogeniture: the inheritance for the male-only line. You cannot identify as male and claim an inheritance.

It works one way, and one way only: for the benefit of men. This is a Mens Rights movement and they care very little about true trans people or women.

Since the issue is a safety one for women, the Ladies should remain female only and the Gents should be unisex. That way, all these women who claim they're not bothered can support their "trans siblings" by using the Gents to keep them company.
You won't find much enthusiasm for that idea, though. I wonder why not?

It's become polarised and toxic. I hate the excoriation of JKR and the horrible bullying by TRAs on social media and I applauded Keira Bell but I do want trans people to live in safety, dignity and with integrity and that's what I'd like to work out. I'd be willing to compromise to some extent. I think the problem is that trans rights activists (not ordinary decent trans people) are going beyond these modest aims in a way that is really quite sinister. The claim that biological sex is bimodal rather than binary is astonishing, and is not being denied by scientists because of bullying of people who challenge the new trans hegemony. The fact that there is pressure to replace sex based rights with gender based removes with the stroke of a pen my recourse to challenge discrimination that arises because of my reproductive anatomy snd physiology because gender is a state of mind rather than biological reality. The trans rights movement is slyly arguing that gender critical feminism is rooted in white supremacy. They will stop at nothing. I've gone onto trans rights FB groups in good faith to challenge my thinking and there are corners of misogyny particularly directed at motherhood, not widespread but enough to be chilling.

PMK.

@Ilovelove

At the moment the conversation goes:

-Name calling
-Refusal to let people with different views have a say by trolling, protesting, preventing
-Pressure on work places to terminate people's employment if they hold an alternative view
-'A veneer' of a reasonable argument that causes rational and intelligent people to turn on their 'friends, people who have give them massive opportunity, people they know'.

• A mass delusion and confusion regarding perception and evidence based fact

-Unelected, vocal and agressive people are trying to change the laws through force and speed and bypass all logical and reasonable routes because of all of the above.

How is this conversation supposed to go? How would you suggest your child conversed with someone who acted like this in their classroom?

Does pointing out this out based on 'the evidence of the behaviour observed' make me a TERF?

I’ve actually seen more female born women do this to trans women and trans men. I’ve seen transitioned passing people named and shamed by female born women in rather vile ways.

So if a trans man was made to use female toilets you’d all be fine? A passing, hormone taking, living as a man trans man? Because if you don’t want trans women in the same toilets as you then you should be fine with trans men in there.

Also trans isn’t a new thing and you’ll have been sharing those toilets for years and not noticed!

So if a trans man was made to use female toilets you’d all be fine? A passing, hormone taking, living as a man trans man? Because if you don’t want trans women in the same toilets as you then you should be fine with trans men in there.

Based on statistical likelihood of me ending up intimidated, harassed, or assaulted? Yeah, I'll take the female man over the male woman any day of the week.

Next question?

Yes transmen are welcome in the ladies

It's usually the only place with San bins for a start

Yep trans men are female - no problem with them in the toilets

It’s not looking like a man that’s the issue, it’s being a man that’s the issue

@MorganKitten

So if a trans man was made to use female toilets you’d all be fine? A passing, hormone taking, living as a man trans man? Because if you don’t want trans women in the same toilets as you then you should be fine with trans men in there.

Also trans isn’t a new thing and you’ll have been sharing those toilets for years and not noticed!

The thing is, it's not actually equivalent. Male people are a threat to female people. If a female-born person wishes to pass as a man and use the gents, they're taking on the risk for themselves.

That said, trans people of either sex tend to retain the behavioural patterns and criminal propensities of their sex, not to mention the strength of their sex. So I'm not worried about trans men. I know that they are female. That said, if one of them genuinely passed as a man yet didn't feel safe in the gents, I'm all for a third space.

I just wish people didn't do this to themselves. I wish we didn't start the conversation from the assumption that people will naturally try to alter their sex and that's all fine and dandy and we just have to accommodate it.

Urinals won't be much use to trans men and they will need the bins.

I'm happy with transmen in the womens.

If they use the mens and the men don't like it then men can fight their own fight, I'm.not their mother

Oh, we always noticed. In the old days, we didn't say anything as it was very rare, and we were being "nice and kind". These days we don't say anything for fear of male violence in what should be a female-only space.

As others have said, very clearly, this is not about a toilet cubicle. It's about the erasure of the female sex. It's about mutilating children. It's reducing 52% of the population to "non-men" (this is how the Green Party referred to the people-formerly-known-as-women).

Also, @MorganKitten, I have noticed. For example, I noticed when I was 18 years old that the same cross-dresser/trans woman (I don't know how they identified) was always stalking in and out of the ladies' loo at the student union spending the best part of the evening looking in the mirrors, washing their hands, popping in and out of cubicles and just generally making themselves at home.

I didn't like it, but didn't feel I could do anything.

Hurrah for the silent acquiescence of teenage girls, eh?

Also trans isn’t a new thing and you’ll have been sharing those toilets for years and not noticed

What on earth made you think that ‘we’ didn’t notice?

This is another thing. And why does it always come back to bogs. It's to make women seem trivial.

Anyway.

Back in the day. If a transperson genuinely passed and used the opposite sex toilet no one knew or noticed.

Of course many don't. And women would do a quick glance assessment and leave them be. If they looked like they were trying to fit in iyswim.

We knew that obvious bloke blokes/ any dodgy behaviour we could speak up/ get them chucked out if it was a pub club etc.

The idea now is that women must trust that anyone in there, even a chap who looks dresses etc as a chap, is in the right place. Saying 'this is the ladies' is an act of aggression. Nothing must be said until if/ when something happens.

So a man looking man could come in. Stand too close to women. Hang around. Strike up conversations. Stare. Etc etc. And we can't do anything. None of that is illegal.

Many creepy men have a knack of staying just this side of the line. And they will exploit this, why wouldn't they? They have nothing to lose. Women must politely put up with it.

@NiceGerbil

The awful thing is, so many women used to be very supportive of trans women. Be kind, it's very difficult. Especially women who were part of the LGB movement, sometimes for years.

The idea that sex role/ gender (with its old meaning) was oppressive for both sexes. Putting us into little boxes and giving little leeway. Feminists in particular have fought this for years, many are gender non conforming which is why they noticed their place in the world, assumptions about them, and came to feminism in the first place.

We could have worked together to increase acceptance of trans women and men, and gender non conforming people in general. Loads of women would have really got behind that.

The demands though got more and more extreme. Self ID? That may change day to day? Use whatever facilities you feel most comfy in? Accept that anyone is what they say they are despite any evidence to the contrary? Sports, prisons, schools. Self ID?!!

Sex doesn't exist.. it's not binary... It's irrelevant for humans... Gender is all that matters and no one can see it...

First trans women said we're women call us women. You are cis.
Then actually I'm not just a woman I'm female. Always have been.
Women and non trans women. Women and cis women. Cervix owners, menstruators, ovulators. Non prostate havers.

Just no. And so women who would have been onside eventually have enough and say the door needs to be closed to all. Male and female are things, and they are important. And that is where the line is.

There was never any engagement with women was there, negotiation. Empathy.

Just give us what we want or choke on a dick/ die in a fire.

And the 'arguments' boil down to, give us this because we say so. None of it stands up to any scrutiny whatsoever.

Yes, spot on!

Well at work we haven't shared toilets . They created gender neutral facilities

Toilets have really really become the tip of the iceberg I think. For me the number one issue is the changing of language, pronouns, the word woman, the asserting that any deviance is "hate", the confusing of children over boundaries, all these things. It is not (only) an argument about toilets and spaces as others have said. But worth restating again and again.