To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

Yes. I can't tell you how many times I have realised that the woman next to me was actually a man.

Sometimes I was unnerved, scared. Other times I reminded myself to smile because he was, as they also say about spiders, probably more scared if me than I was if him. I made sure I was nice.

I'd still be doing that, swallowing the cognitive dissonance, berating myself for my lack of empathy, had I not come here, argued as you are doing and been not so gently forced to reassess.

I have had to be honest with myself and acknowledge that I do fear transwomen in precisely the same way I fear all other men.

Not because each and every single one of them is a rapist, violent etc, but because some are. And I can't tell which is which by looking at them.

I'll just repeat my earlier post as you clearly didn't read it.
You, willithappen said:
"The only possible definition of a women you can use as this argument is the definition that a women can 'produce offspring/bear children'"

I pointed out that was incorrect. It's not a definition I use. It's not 'the only possible definition'. I gave you a link to an alternative definition.

If you have to change our argument to 'prove us wrong' then you're not proving anything. Straw men arguments are incredibly tedious. At least engage what is actually being argued, not what you falsely claim is being argued.

I said if that was the definition you were going to use then you were also saying women who were infertile were not women

You seem to be using a definition that no one uses to back up an argument that no one is making - so you can vehemently refute it!

I genuinely hope you can all come to an understanding where you don't have to make someone's life feel worthless and that they don't belong.

Oh stop it with the faux emotional blackmail. Saying that there are two sexes is not wrong. Nobody should be made to feel worthless because they accept reality. I think it is far crueller to pretend that reality doesn't exist.

As one of those unfertile women you tried to weaponise it was either that or a plain " fuck off"

I was 'being nice' 😁

The only possible definition of a women you can use as this argument is the definition that a women can 'produce offspring/bear children' and if you go down that route you are diminishing the 10% of women who are infertile and can't bear children.

It rather looks like you are putting words in people's mouths, to me. Straw man.

You seem to be using a definition that no one uses to back up an argument that no one is making - so you can vehemently refute it!

Indeed! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

It's really not that difficult to make an evenhanded, good faith argument, surely? Unless you don't have a decent argument.

@Sometimesonly

I genuinely hope you can all come to an understanding where you don't have to make someone's life feel worthless and that they don't belong.

Oh stop it with the faux emotional blackmail. Saying that there are two sexes is not wrong. Nobody should be made to feel worthless because they accept reality. I think it is far crueller to pretend that reality doesn't exist.

Indeed.

I realised a long time ago that TRAs have no argument.

The arsenal is empty.

It's either be kind, or be kind, or else.

@CuriousaboutSamphire thank you for this response. It's actually a very well put way to respond to your feelings and I appreciate that.

I also appreciate feeling scared as a women sometimes, but in all honesty I'd be scared if a women came in that looked violent too.

What I'm trying to say is it is unfair to tarnish all trans women with this brush, when they haven't done that in their life. I'm not trying to pull away rights for women. I've fought for women's rights since the moment I realised we were not treated as equally to men. In that sense, I'll also fight for trans women's and trans men's rights too because I feel we all should be treated the same

Feminism is the beliefs that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. That everyone in this world should.

Think how you feel about being paid less, looked down upon etc just because you are female - that's how trans women and men feel too, they are being treated differently just for being trans. These are not things we can choose

So my initial point where the actual issue here is violent men, women (including trans) taking advantage of this still stands. The small minority causing these issues, not the majority.

I can see that this is a sensitive issue for you but if you are going to insist TW are W then you need to untangle your thinking a bit.

You should be able to say what a Woman is, and what a transwoman is, its bizarre that you would prefer to chant slogans than explore that.

Women are adult human females - of the sex class that bears children. This doesn't mean that someone who doesn't want to or can't have children is not a woman - and its a bit...worrying that you can't understand that quite basic biological classification. Humans have two legs, but it does not mean someone one legged is not human...

So you are certain Eddie Izzard, Alex Drummond, Jessica Yaniv and Pippa Bunce are women - (you won't say how you are defining women for some reason) - but maybe you can answer what is it that women have in common with Eddie Izzard et al, that we don't have in common with other men?

why should we be forced to include men in women's sports, changing rooms, prisons etc? I mean, you must know why you want that. What's the reason?

It's either be kind, or be kind, or else.

It is. The "or else" is employed when the penny drops that a particular woman is immune to emotional blackmail, and puts women and girls first.

It is fairly clear to everyone and everything on this planet which organisms are male and which are female. They don’t need defining. It just is.

My cat is female. It has been neutered, but not once have I ever questioned whether using “she” is literal violence, or how my cat identifies. I don’t watch her and wonder if her choosing the blue mouse over the pink one is a manifestation of her preferred gender.

Sex is sex. We don’t need to discuss and define points like infertility- we know fine well an infertile woman is not a man.

That’s not to say anyone shouldn’t be allowed to live wearing whatever clothes they like, dating who the like, wearing make up, nail varnish, short hair, long hair, or subscribing to whatever stereotype without living in safety and being treated equally.

People can tie themselves in knots as much as they want. But sex is immutable.

@Biscuitsanddoombar I'm sorry people are so insensitive. Many women know the pain you are going through and it really is a pain that's exclusive to women. (I know men feel sadness as well but it's such a deep pain for you). X

Think how you feel about being paid less, looked down upon etc just because you are female - that's how trans women and men feel too, they are being treated differently just for being trans. These are not things we can choose

Yes, there are many groups of people other than women and trans people who face discrimination and harassment. They all have unique issues, and there is no "one size fits all" solution.

What I'm trying to say is it is unfair to tarnish all trans women with this brush, when they haven't done that in their life. I'm not trying to pull away rights for women.

We are not saying that trans women are bad. Just like we are not saying that all men are bad. However, we have separate SEX-based facilities because statistically we know that men are stronger than women and are more of a threat to women than other women would be. If you have some evidence which proves that (male) trans women do not share these characteristics with (male) men you should let everybody know as it would surely support your argument!

trans women have no interest in violating you.

If that`s true willithappen why is it that half of the born male prisoners in England and Wales who declare themselves transgender have been sentenced with one or more sexual offences?

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

The bar for women's participation in public life is not "unlikely to be raped, anything else goes". It is particularly ironic when so much attention is paid to the feelings of other groups.

[quote willithappen]@CuriousaboutSamphire thank you for this response. It's actually a very well put way to respond to your feelings and I appreciate that.

I also appreciate feeling scared as a women sometimes, but in all honesty I'd be scared if a women came in that looked violent too.

What I'm trying to say is it is unfair to tarnish all trans women with this brush, when they haven't done that in their life. I'm not trying to pull away rights for women. I've fought for women's rights since the moment I realised we were not treated as equally to men. In that sense, I'll also fight for trans women's and trans men's rights too because I feel we all should be treated the same

Feminism is the beliefs that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. That everyone in this world should.

Think how you feel about being paid less, looked down upon etc just because you are female - that's how trans women and men feel too, they are being treated differently just for being trans. These are not things we can choose

So my initial point where the actual issue here is violent men, women (including trans) taking advantage of this still stands. The small minority causing these issues, not the majority. [/quote]
Indeed, there are lots of trans people who are vulnerable. For all sorts of reasons. There are gay people who are vulnerable, autistic people, disabled people, elderly people people with mental health issues.

If you understand feminism, you understand that women are targeted because of their biology. 117 million females have gone missing worldwide specifically because of their biology. They either haven't been born, or they have been killed or disappeared.

None of them could have changed their path by identifying as a different sex.

You need to tackle the reasons for this, not encourage people to disguise their sex, to disguise the issue.

[quote TheBuffster]@Biscuitsanddoombar I'm sorry people are so insensitive. Many women know the pain you are going through and it really is a pain that's exclusive to women. (I know men feel sadness as well but it's such a deep pain for you). X[/quote]
I guarantee I'm not insensitive to this posters issues. Not once did I actually say that's what I believed.

I used a definition that was the first one found when looking up and tried to refute that definition - being someone going through infertility and IVF myself - it touched a nerve.

I have the deepest sympathy with this user in fact and I wish them nothing but the best

I would add, I am not saying that all transwomen are predators, I am saying that being able to self ID opens the door for predators to access spaces they would otherwise have considerably more difficulty in accessing.

@Datun I'm not encouraging people to disguise their sex to get round the issue. I don't believe for one second that's what a trans women is

used a definition that was the first one found when looking up

You imposed your idea on posters here. We know it's more complex. Don't put words in people's mouths and then blame them for it.

I'm not encouraging people to disguise their sex to get round the issue. I don't believe for one second that's what a trans women is

So you DON'T believe a trans woman is a woman?

@PoleToPole

I would add, I am not saying that all transwomen are predators, I am saying that being able to self ID opens the door for predators to access spaces they would otherwise have considerably more difficulty in accessing.

I don't believe you do think all trans women are predators.

Out of curiosity then, if a trans women has the ability to go through with all necessary steps, operations, hair transplants - the likes, are these trans women then welcome into 'our' spaces?

Then what is a transwomen

Di you know that Jo surgery hormones ir transition is actually necessary to get a grc?

There are only 5000 or so grcs that have been issued.

Gender dysphoria is not a requirement to be considered a transwoman.

So what is your definition of a transwoman