To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

The only possible definition of a women you can use as this argument is the definition that a women can 'produce offspring/bear children' and if you go down that route you are diminishing the 10% of women who are infertile and can't bear children.

Of course it's not the only possible definition - it's not even a definition that anyone uses.

The only possible definition of a women you can use as this argument is the definition that a women can 'produce offspring/bear children' and if you go down that route you are diminishing the 10% of women who are infertile and can't bear children.

That's simply not true, is it? That's not the only definition and not one that's used on here.
Are you deliberately getting it wrong or have you not bothered to read any relevant posts, legal cases, blogs, journalism?

What definition did Maya Forstater use when she defended herself for being fired for believing that biological sex was fixed?
I'll give you a pointer: mforstater.medium.com/claimants-witness-statement-abe3e8073b41

Here you go willithappen, fifteen pages of screenshots. Fill your boots.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3955276-resource-thread-of-tra-screenshots

@willithappen

See attached image. Just some of the threats toward JKR on twitter.

Transwomen are men, though.

And nobody is diminishing women like myself, the ones who cannot fulfil the uniquely female function of giving birth.

I am still female, of the class that can give birth. I just happen to have a medical issue that prevents me from doing so.

I am not suddenly reclassified as a man because of it. Or any other non female role!

Again still waiting on you providing the definition we should use then?

Quoting an article on UNISEX toilets doesn't favour you. Trans women are not asking for unisex toilets. No where in that article does it state these attacks are by trans women...

What's ironic is that you have all probably already shared a toilet with a trans women and had no idea. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[quote willithappen]@Helmetbymidnight again the irony of pushing on me to answer a question - that you clearly know the answer to - whilst you ignore my own questions 😇

The only possible definition of a women you can use as this argument is the definition that a women can 'produce offspring/bear children' and if you go down that route you are diminishing the 10% of women who are infertile and can't bear children.

Please give me your definition then? And happily awaiting answers to my other questions

I'm so glad that the younger generation are more open and accepting to allowing people to live freely how they wish. The only saving grace is that when these people are older the transphobes/racists/those against gays etc will be a died out opinion. [/quote]
Oh for crying out loud. Do you really believe that the 'only possible' definition of woman is one that actually excludes women?

The definition is adult human female. Of or denoting the sex who bears eggs. The keyword is denoting.

If a teen girl does not begin to menstruate she will be diagnosed and treated at the doctors.

If a teen boy goes to the doctors and asks why he hasn't started his periods, he will be referred for therapy (or a biology lesson).

For the love of God, please consider why you feel the need to place the feelings of dominant males over the lived reality of women and girls.

And ask yourself why, in order to do so, you have to pretend language and biology doesn't exist.

[quote willithappen]@Helmetbymidnight again the irony of pushing on me to answer a question - that you clearly know the answer to - whilst you ignore my own questions 😇

The only possible definition of a women you can use as this argument is the definition that a women can 'produce offspring/bear children' and if you go down that route you are diminishing the 10% of women who are infertile and can't bear children.

Please give me your definition then? And happily awaiting answers to my other questions

I'm so glad that the younger generation are more open and accepting to allowing people to live freely how they wish. The only saving grace is that when these people are older the transphobes/racists/those against gays etc will be a died out opinion. [/quote]
No-one has ever said that infertile women are not women or less woman than others.
They are still biologically female in every cell of their body regardless of their ability to produce offspring or not.

@PoleToPole

Thank you Datun, to be frank the older my DDs get, the harder it gets. My eldest is 16 now, and the vast majority of the women I see are not much older. Fortunately all of my DC are strongly GC.

In recent years there has been a drastic, and worrying uptick in seeing women with the same kinds of damage which I used to only rarely see outside of women involved in sex work. Now the majority are not involved in sex work.
There is so much which needs to be done on womens` rights issues, now more than perhaps ever. It is not the time to be handing them away.

I couldn't agree more. We are going backwards with young women thinking that sex doesn't matter.

Quoting an article on UNISEX toilets doesn't favour you. Trans women are not asking for unisex toilets. No where in that article does it state these attacks are by trans women...

If transwomen can use women's toilets then the toilets become unisex. If you have no definition for woman and no definition for trans woman then you ARE saying everyone is welcome in. Why do you not get that?

What's ironic is that you have all probably already shared a toilet with a trans women and had no idea.

Oh for crying out loud. How on earth is this 'ironic'. Why is it ironic that a trans woman has shared a toilet with a woman who thinks biological sex exists and sometimes is important?

willithappen I POINTED you towards an example of a definition with my previous link - did you really not understand it?

I couldn't agree more. We are going backwards with young women thinking that sex doesn't matter.

Yes we really are, aren`t we.

[quote willithappen]@Helmetbymidnight again the irony of pushing on me to answer a question - that you clearly know the answer to - whilst you ignore my own questions 😇

The only possible definition of a women you can use as this argument is the definition that a women can 'produce offspring/bear children' and if you go down that route you are diminishing the 10% of women who are infertile and can't bear children.

Please give me your definition then? And happily awaiting answers to my other questions

I'm so glad that the younger generation are more open and accepting to allowing people to live freely how they wish. The only saving grace is that when these people are older the transphobes/racists/those against gays etc will be a died out opinion. [/quote]
What rubbish

I can’t have children and I’m still a fucking woman. I still have a body designed to bear children, I still have a pelvis shaped different to mens, I still have the equipment to produce large gametes, it’s just move doesn’t work properly. I am sick to death of childless women being used as a gotcha and equated to fucking men by TRA. Do you not think it’s not hard enough wanting children and not being able to have them without being weaponised and told you’re not a woman??

It's ironic because you are up in arms about something that's quite frankly already happened, you just don't realise because there's nothing wrong with it.

God forbid any of you have children, grandchild, friends, anyone close to you in your life go through what a trans person has to go through.

I'm out of this ridiculous thread now. I'll happily go fight for women's rights without having to dimish the rights of others.

I genuinely hope you can all come to an understanding where you don't have to make someone's life feel worthless and that they don't belong. Genuinely wishing kindness upon all of you

Sorry to hear that, Biscuits. And I can imagine it feels pretty offensive to have your condition wheeled out to support the falsehood that "this is the only definition GC feminists can use".

@Biscuitsanddoombar stop twisting the words in my post - not once did I actually say that if you can't have children you are not a women. A definition provided said a women is someone who can bear children/have offspring which I am DISPUTING

As someone going through infertility myself that's the very last thing I'd say. Stop using my words to add to your twisted agenda.

What's ironic is that you have all probably already shared a toilet with a trans women and had no idea. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Actually I did. Turned to acknowledge the person at the sink next to me and had to readjust my sightline from my own 5’2 upwards to 6’4. Clearly a man stood between me and the exit.

It was late at night in a deserted work building as yes I felt pretty uncomfortable. Especially as we have many toilets, little used toilets on the top. floor, accessible toilets and single change rooms. The cognitive dissonance when you are expecting one thing and are faced with another is quite jarring.

Oh....the irony.

And the twisting...

willithappen you literally used someone's infertility to support your incorrect claim, which I note you have not had the courtesy to correct, and continued to pretend no-one had corrected you, and yet you ask us to be kind?

This, this is the irony.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Oh....the irony.

And the twisting...

Wow, what an educated come back 😇

@DeaconBoo

Sorry to hear that, Biscuits. And I can imagine it feels pretty offensive to have your condition wheeled out to support the falsehood that "this is the only definition GC feminists can use".

Thanks Deacon :)

It really is. Luckily I know that that is not the position of GC feminists at all because I spend lots of time here but I’ve no doubt the TRA are out there pedalling it furiously telling young women it’s what those Marty old feminists think!

@DeaconBoo

willithappen you literally used someone's infertility to support your incorrect claim, which I note you have not had the courtesy to correct, and continued to pretend no-one had corrected you, and yet you ask us to be kind?

This, this is the irony.

No I didn't actually. Read my post again please!

I said if that was the definition you were going to use then you were also saying women who were infertile were not women. I (emphasis on that please) did not say that one bit. I'm literally away to start IVF this week and you genuinely think that's an opinion I'd suggest?

Oh please do tell me where this is being said?
Never had that said to me once in my life, despite being around many trans friends and associates.

It's hardly a surprise that you are not being subjected to any kind of threat, if you are openly handing over women's rights and spaces to any man who asks, is it?

Women have started documenting the threats. Just take a look at the 355 pages of them.

You said tw were not interested in violating the rights or spaces of women. I pointed out to you that, yes very many of them are. And now someone has conveniently provided you with the proof.

The personal experience of you and your friend is completely irrelevant.

A definition provided said a women is someone who can bear children/have offspring which I am DISPUTING

A woman is an adult human female. Female is the sex which has the potential to produce large gametes (ova) at certain times in their life, all being well. Sometimes all is not well, due to medical issues. It's not that difficult.