To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

I think your problem is you are so close minded to this. No, the problem is asking a physically vulnerable group with a protected characteristic to move over because of another, less physically vulnerable group with a protected characteristic. And no debate!

If you can't let trans women into women bathrooms because of the fear or male predators taking advantage of this and being a danger to women - then I'm afraid to tell you your problem isn't trans women. You are rtight., The problem is men. And transwomen are men!

How about try educate men and solve that problem rather than taking it out on trans women. We try... and include transwomen as they are men!

I've honestly never seen more transphobia in my life than this thread. That's because you start of from a point of fairy tales and unicorns. A world in which humans can change sex on a whim!

What you are reading is women saying no, we will not give up our right to autonomy, dignity, privacy etc.

Forget toilets! They are the favoured tools of TRAs to distract and make the issue seem trivial. Instead hinestly answer just 2 very basic questions

Should male bodied people be able to compete in female sports?
Should male bodied people be able to stand for all women shortlists?

If no why not?

If yes, why?

And no, "Because they are women" is a falsehood - unless you can explain how that happens without the usual circularity of expresssion.

Are you racist? Do you think that British and American men and males are somehow soooo much more trust worthy they can pee next to little girls ? Its just foreign men/malea that are a problem ?

This is such a good point. When you speak of allowing TW into female spaces are you only thinking of the western world or do you think it should be a world wide social norm. If you don't think that then why not?

Thank you for refocusing us. The real issue here is MALES and all the subset groups of MALES.

Yes. It's not about whether those male people are transgender. It's about the fact that they are male.

If Transwomen are women, how come they are still at risk of Prostate cancer ?

@Floisme

Surely we already have a middle ground in the UK? As I understand it, we have legislation that gives people the right to change their legal gender, plus a law that protects both gender reassignment and biological sex, and that allows single sex spaces in certain situations.

How is that not a compromise?

So forgive me but I don't think 'why can't we all find a compromise? is the right question. For me, the more pertinent questions are, why are some people not satisfied with this compromise? What else do they want and why do they want it?

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Thank you for refocusing us. The real issue here is MALES and all the subset groups of MALES.

Yes. It's not about whether those male people are transgender. It's about the fact that they are male.

Agree. The first step is for TW to take it up with their class that is men and work with them to eradicate misogyny.

If male-on-female oppression, violence, harassment and crime rates are reduced to the same level of female-to-male rates, only then would I be up for having a discussion around inclusive spaces. Until then, they can fuck off, and no feminists can't sort this out. It is never up to women to sort out men's problems.

Just to clarify further, I don't think of legal protection against discrimination for trans people as a compromise - that's an absolute human right as far as I'm concerned. The middle ground, to my mind, is around allowing the right to change your legal gender while still protecting single sex spaces in certain situations.

This was thrashed out over 10 years ago so I'm kind of curious about this narrative - and I'm not just talking about the op, I see it a lot - that there has been no sensible discussion and no willingness to compromise.

@PoleToPole I have to apologise, I didn't read your subsequent replies that show we are mostly on the same side I assumed you were a TRA. However I still have to challenge your views and ask how on Earth a penis magically becomes a vagina because a person says so.

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows no apology necessary, but thank you, I would possibly be the worst TRA in history, and I think we are 100% aligned on this one.
I dont think a penis magically becomes a vagina, I dont think we should be compelled to call a pre-op penis a clit either, or a post op one for that matter.
The nature of my particular professional speciality means I spend day in, day out patching up women, or trying to, who have been maimed, violated and abused due to male sexual violence. I am vehemently on the side of womens` rights.

I was trying to point out to all of the posters who have said that we should aim for a middle ground that it would not stop there, as even they were not using language which would be considered acceptable to TRAs.
The middle ground includes compelled speech and the false re-labelling of anatomy and denial of biological reality. As soon as you start deviating from reality en masse like that, it opens the door for more sedition of womens` rights. Its the thin end of the wedge.

I have repeatedly linked to the TRA screenshot thread, and the It will never happen thread, along with many other news articles as I feel strongly that anyone advocating for a middle ground should be crystal clear about everything that entails, including the fact that their speech would be compelled, as many were using terms, like penis, which TRAs will not tolerate.

All that said, womens` rights are not a negotiation point, they are not to be carelessly handed away after we have struggled so long for them just so as not to hurt feelings.

I did get it, @PoleToPole and had a smirk at your seemingly guileless posting

But I am in an equally facetious, sarcastic, egregious mode this morning!

@PoleToPole again I'm really sorry I mistook your stance, I only read the posts which didn't include your gender critical views and feel like a massive Wally

The work you do is amazing, do you get many TW in asking you to work on their genitalia?

Thanks @CuriousaboutSamphire, I was not trying to be deliberately disingenuous, but I was trying to illustrate just how compelled womens voices would be, even in a so called middle ground. I was trying to phrase things in a way which wouldnt get me deleted, and I went about it in a rather ham fisted way.
I was also quietly praying none of my colleagues recognised me in case they didn`t realise my intentions .

No problem at all @JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows it is the having to dance around the subject which makes it so difficult.
Thank you, and no, I am originally a trauma surgeon, I ended up specialising in repairing damage from male sexual violence, but my experience is in treating womens` bodies.
Sadly the women who I treat are rarely in much condition to have much of a consultation with first, and are usually in a critical condition if I am called to consult/operate. "Rough sex"/BDSM gone wrong being one of the most common causes.
I have had a few ask, but they are ones who seem to have mistaken the meaning of "trauma" in relation to the remit of my role, and they have been referred to elsewhere.

And don`t feel like a Wally, I felt like one typing most of it

@PoleToPole

No problem at all *@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows* it is the having to dance around the subject which makes it so difficult. Thank you, and no, I am originally a trauma surgeon, I ended up specialising in repairing damage from male sexual violence, but my experience is in treating womens` bodies. Sadly the women who I treat are rarely in much condition to have much of a consultation with first, and are usually in a critical condition if I am called to consult/operate. "Rough sex"/BDSM gone wrong being one of the most common causes. I have had a few ask, but they are ones who seem to have mistaken the meaning of "trauma" in relation to the remit of my role, and they have been referred to elsewhere.

Jeez pole. Kudos to you and what you do. That really is the coal face. I'm so glad you're here 💐

@Helmetbymidnight the irony of your username 🙃

I'm a women. I'm not in any way arguing for less rights by allowing trans women the same rights and spaces as us. Trans women are women - same rights, we can all fight for the same thing.

Please explain to me the real issue with trans women sharing a bathroom? What are you really scared of?

You are aware men (and violent women) can access these bathrooms too yes? They just walk right in...
trans women have no interest in violating you.

You've been asked what a women is repeatedly, and you still can't.

Who are 'us' - What thing are 'we' fighting for?

Go on. Give it a go.

What is a woman? What is a transwoman? Simple questions.

I already mentioned this on the other similar thread but third spaces are not the answer either in my opinion. All that will happen is that the third spaces will lie empty and mostly unused, because TW are 'women' according to their own beliefs, and need to feed that belief, and have that belief validated by others. What good would it do them to use a third space which essentially says " you're not really a woman". Some have already threatened as much in these threads - ie "there's nothing you can do about it".
Power.
Validation.
That's all its about.

trans women have no interest in violating you.

You might want to have a word with those who tell women they need to be raped with their female penises, in that case.

There are literally hundreds to choose from, and are quite upfront about it. You shouldn't have any trouble.

@user1471565182

Yeah ive mostly been on the side of the 'TERFs' but getting fucking sick of it lately, some of the stupid shit I've heard and raw bigotry and most of all feminists thinking far right politics are the answer to this issue.

Really?

What do you think happened to turn left leaning feminists into so called bigots?

It's the redefinition of the word woman without consent and the subsequent loss of all the rights that they have always fought for.

It's not right wing to support women's rights.

It's right wing to impose gender ideology on 52% of the human race without their consent.

The fact that this is supported by left wing parties like the labour party leaves women politically homeless. The men don't care.

@Helmetbymidnight again the irony of pushing on me to answer a question - that you clearly know the answer to - whilst you ignore my own questions 😇

The only possible definition of a women you can use as this argument is the definition that a women can 'produce offspring/bear children' and if you go down that route you are diminishing the 10% of women who are infertile and can't bear children.

Please give me your definition then? And happily awaiting answers to my other questions

I'm so glad that the younger generation are more open and accepting to allowing people to live freely how they wish. The only saving grace is that when these people are older the transphobes/racists/those against gays etc will be a died out opinion.

Thank you Datun, to be frank the older my DDs get, the harder it gets. My eldest is 16 now, and the vast majority of the women I see are not much older. Fortunately all of my DC are strongly GC.

In recent years there has been a drastic, and worrying uptick in seeing women with the same kinds of damage which I used to only rarely see outside of women involved in sex work. Now the majority are not involved in sex work.
There is so much which needs to be done on womens` rights issues, now more than perhaps ever. It is not the time to be handing them away.

Wonder what happened to OP who seemed so desperate to reach an amicable conclusion! 🙄🤨

And those already convicted, in the UK, for deviant and violent acts, some against minors, in public toilets.

It is not good enough to protest that transwomen aren't interested in assaulting women in public toilets when some have already done just that!

@Datun

trans women have no interest in violating you.

You might want to have a word with those who tell women they need to be raped with their female penises, in that case.

There are literally hundreds to choose from, and are quite upfront about it. You shouldn't have any trouble.

Oh please do tell me where this is being said? Never had that said to me once in my life, despite being around many trans friends and associates.

If I in turn said 'so many women have told me I need to not work and stay in the kitchen' would you be in uproar about that because I'm effectively saying that you yourself are saying that? 🤷🏻‍♀️

You are aware men (and violent women) can access these bathrooms too yes? They just walk right in...
trans women have no interest in violating you.

You are aware that we know that unisex spaces are more dangerous for women - it's where most assaults occur. And yes, uniSEX spaces so if you let transwomen in, single sex spaces become unisex spaces. So it's not true that it doesn't make any difference to women and girls if we abolish single sex spaces. How dare you agree to putting women and girls at increased risk.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html