To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/63de169c-dfbb-4b22-9da3-b5f3a55628a2

Sorry for bbc link. This explains the South Korea issue.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/man-used-hidden-camera-film-4334605.amp

And it happens here too

twitter.com/johnt0709/status/1347625787730649089?s=20

Look at these awful transphobe bigots.

I do wonder what picture of trans women some posters carry around in their heads....

Always good to see ‘ha rapists gonna rape anyway’ trotted out too. Let’s just get rid of safeguarding completely shall we?

@Impatiens did a trans woman commit the crime? If not, my point still stands.

A reminder for us all though on just why talking about this is considered transphobic.

It does seem that this group is so focused on having their needs prioritized over EVERY one else’s. I mean, any group who feels they have any right to abuse victims of FGM fighting to stop FGM about the fact that it is Female Genital Mutilation and excludes transwomen really has lost any credibility they ever had. At all.

The best way to stop discussion is to obviously define transphobia as even thinking there is a conflict in rights.

@Tubbytenbums I don't understand your point? Most crimes happen in the home but not all

And how does one know the difference between a man and a transwomen who just came out so doesn't look any different?

What's the give away?

TBC, Tubby, you're arguing there should be no more safeguarding in public places because the majority of sexual assaults occur near the home?

That's an unusual stance...

It's a gotcha. A bit of whataboutery.

did a trans woman commit the crime? If not, my point still stands.

Yes. Yes they did.

I agree with you OP but the views are so entrenched with people who are interested in the issue that you will just be shouted at by both sides for suggesting any kind of middle ground or compromise.

But in the interests of your kindness message, please do avoid the use of ‘Terfs’ whatever you say it stands for.

Do you have a suggestion for middle ground or compromise?

Serenade, can you think of some solutions/compromises then?

I don't think anyone here would automatically shout any middle ways down.

You're quick, Erish! ;)

@SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun plenty of women happy to have a middle ground of helping fight for third spaces. TRAs don't want this. When one party offers a solution and and the other days "no it's our way or nothing" where do you go from there?

@willithappen

You all also act like public female bathrooms are guarded with bouncers as well If a male predator wanted to take advantage of this then quite frankly they would do so already. Stop using trans women to push this agenda and take a step back and think about what your real issue is here

Trans women ARE women.

They're absolutely not.

Why is it when people who says "transwomen are women@ never ever come back to answer the question of "what is a woman". It's almost like they can't explain the logic 🧐

It's because it's an article of faith, not a logical statement.

Much like the body of christ, or the resurrection.

You can see it in statements like the recent one from the Feminist Library that start "We believe...."

Reads like a credo.

@bluebluezoo

There needs to be more kindness on both sides

Fuck off the the “kindness”. What that really means is let others trample all over your wants and needs because theirs are more important. “Kindness” can not be a two way street.

But to address your concerns, most women and trans women I know co exist fine. These transwomen wouldn’t dream of inserting themselves into womens spaces or insisting they get what they want, sod everyone else. They are nice, thoughtful people who use the accessible bathroom or the toilets in the 5th floor no one else uses if others are uncomfortable. All they want is to live their lives in the way they want, causing as little upset to others as possible.

women are fine with that, and most will absolutely stand up for their rights to be treated as they wish.

It is the TRA’s and their demands to be let into womens space, to take away womens access to protected jobs, education, awards, even safety .to be validated by women allowing them to do what whatever they choose and bend over and praise them for doing it.

Anyone who threatens another person with their penis, whether they call it a ladydick or not, is exhibiting male violence and ends any right they have to be allowed into female spaces. I lost count of the “suck my big fat ladydick” and my ladydick in her mouth would shut her up” type threats toward jkr.

Personally though I think “non binary” is the norm, not the exception. Gender isn’t a binary, sex is. I am non binary because i don’t always dress in heels and skirts, and i don’t like all that is pink and glittery. I like science, maths and jeans. I don’t know many men or women that subscribe exclusively to the male/female stereotype, and it would be a sad world if they did. Back to the days of women doing all the housework and putting pretty ribbons in their hair, while the men go out wearing their trousers and doing a hard days graft.

Get rid of gender and all the pink and blue shit and a lot of the non binary genderqueer stuff disappears overnight...

This is the most sense I’ve ever read on the subject

Surely we already have a middle ground in the UK? As I understand it, we have legislation that gives people the right to change their legal gender, plus a law that protects both gender reassignment and biological sex, and that allows single sex spaces in certain situations.

How is that not a compromise?

So forgive me but I don't think 'why can't we all find a compromise? is the right question. For me, the more pertinent questions are, why are some people not satisfied with this compromise? What else do they want and why do they want it?

@Tubbytenbums

Genuinely don't understand the bathroom/toilet situation. We share spaces with different genders in other contexts. Why are women more vulnerable in a toilet? Seems a bizarre way to think. When I use a bathroom/toilet that's public, it's private, I lock the door, why would I care who is in the next cubicle? They aren't in my space. This seems like a non issue to me

If you are genuinely unaware of where women's rights and trans rights conflict and you are up for more reading, may I suggest you start here.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

And regarding 'your space'. What about in the instance of communal changing rooms, which are still in existence today? There is no special provision for this. So, as Helen Staniland is known to ask,

"do you think that an adult male with a penis should have the right to undress beside a teenage girl, or any woman, in a women's communal changing room?'

If your answer is in any way conditional, that it is not so straight forward, ask yourself why you feel that way?

Also ask yourself if you have the right to give away other women's rights to feel safe, particularly those who have been victims of male abuse or who have religious reasons why they cannot share with a male. (Oh, and I have seen at least one mtf transitioner poster on MN tell us that religious women need to be 'educated' and that they in turn need to 'educate' the leaders of their religions.....)

@Floisme yes I agree with. However, the compromise has moved into mainstream coercion. I may be socially ostracised for refusing to opt in to a gender id such as Cis or NB. This is more than compromise now.

@willithappen

You all also act like public female bathrooms are guarded with bouncers as well If a male predator wanted to take advantage of this then quite frankly they would do so already. Stop using trans women to push this agenda and take a step back and think about what your real issue is here

Trans women ARE women.

Please stop with the straw men and the denial that the current system does currently work without 'bouncers' and gender checks. It is ridiculous hyperbole and you probably know it.

Stop using trans women to push this agenda and take a step back and think about what your real issue is here

Thank you for refocusing us. The real issue here is MALES and all the subset groups of MALES. Please present us the evidence that transwomen commit crimes at the same rate and the same type as females....

As people have said before, this is not twitter. We like to read the studies that are presented so we can make up our own minds and apply some critical analysis.

Exactly Joody. I just get very frustrated when this is couched as 'Why can't we find a middle ground' when to my mind, we already have done.

@Floisme

Surely we already have a middle ground in the UK? As I understand it, we have legislation that gives people the right to change their legal gender, plus a law that protects both gender reassignment and biological sex, and that allows single sex spaces in certain situations.

How is that not a compromise?

So forgive me but I don't think 'why can't we all find a compromise? is the right question. For me, the more pertinent questions are, why are some people not satisfied with this compromise? What else do they want and why do they want it?

Exactly.

We have a solution that women can demand and keep their sex segregation, as long as it is 'a proportional means to a legitimate end'.

Except when someone does that, they are targeted relentlessly. The women only app Giggle, for instance specifically invoked the exemption, and the woman running it received over a thousand threats in a matter of days.

Even posters on here think men have the legal right to disrobe in front of teenage girls and women. They do not.

But our organisations, the police, the NHS, charities, government departments, have all been convinced they do. As a previous poster says, the coercion is out of hand.

The determination to be able to legitimately have a go at women, on the basis of being progressive, is too, too tempting.

Fortunately, many women are saying no. Including this one.

And, as we all know, that is a complete sentence.