To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

If you’re wondering how we got to this point, Jane clare Jones article ‘annals of the TERF wars’ is worth a read.

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

@user1471565182

Yeah ive mostly been on the side of the 'TERFs' but getting fucking sick of it lately, some of the stupid shit I've heard and raw bigotry and most of all feminists thinking far right politics are the answer to this issue.

Have you got mixed up? The far right are surely the trans activists? They're the ones who want to enforce rigid stereotypes, and threaten people with violence if they disagree. They want to prevent people having discussions, organising protests, stepping out of line. They punish people by taking away their livelihood and are trying to make 'hurting their feelings' a criminal offence which could presumably be punished by prison if it was deemed serious enough.

Trans Activism is a far right men's movement.

the middle ground is third spaces:

trans sports, trans shortlists, trans toilets.

try suggesting that to TRA's and see where that gets you.

YY. Easy to do, on Twitter or Facebook. Give it a try and see if they're more reasonable than women here.

when i did i was told that it would be like putting gold stars on jews and the next step was gas chambers?

miranda yardley and fionne orlander and some other tw did a third spaces petition- it hasnt really taken off because tra's dont want third spaces.

miranda yardley and fionne orlander and some other tw did a third spaces petition- it hasnt really taken off because tra's dont want third spaces

Which should tell all those who say they are danger etc that it's not just about danger.

Because of it was then third spaces would be just fine.

And also no one would want self ID because that would enable tbe veey dangerous men that would attack someone in the mens to follow them straight into the womens.

I'm not sure how much more evidence is needed that the safety etc is not the primary concern

Third spaces needed. Female spaces are for females. If the male spaces are so scary that’s a MALE problem for men to sort out, why is it always women expected to sort out men’s problems? My other issue is with being called “right wing” for thinking this. The men saying any bloke who doesn’t fit their idea of manliness must be a “girl” are the regressive right wing ideologues surely? Or that dresses and lovely lipstick are what ladies do? That’s regressive. Lesbians are men. Regressive. Your biology is what makes you male or female. A man who doesn’t fit the stereotype of football and pints down the pub isn’t suddenly a woman. Let men sort out their own problems for once.

I wasn`t talking about transwomen who have had bottom surgery, I was talking about the 90% of transwomen who choose to keep their genitals exactly the same as they were at birth, but these genitals are not called their penis and testicles, they are their clit and vagina

The appropriation of women's genitals - which is the root cause of our oppressions - and the gaslighting by saying "this is something entirely different than it is because I say so" is vile and offensive beyond belief.

Ask yourself why no one ever argues that trans men's vaginas and clitorises are actually testicles and a penis. Why do you think that is @PoleToPole

I'm sure you think you're very logical and woke but this website has intelligent women who stand up for themselves and will it tolerate this utter nonsense.

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows she's teasing you by demonstrating the absurdity of what TRAs are actually saying.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Well the fact that trans women are women and trans men are men sums up most of your problems there

I think your problem is that most people know that isn't true.

I think your problem is you are so close minded to this.

If you can't let trans women into women bathrooms because of the fear or male predators taking advantage of this and being a danger to women - then I'm afraid to tell you your problem isn't trans women.

How about try educate men and solve that problem rather than taking it out on trans women.

I've honestly never seen more transphobia in my life than this thread.

I have been told that when a transwoman decides to begin identifying as a woman, they become a woman, and their genitals change to reflect this, taking on a more feminine, soft appearance, and begin to have a nice aroma.

🤣🤣

Sorry but that made me laugh.

You're a medic, a professional, tell me how the science works that when believing suddenly you're a woman it changes the shape and scent of a penis?

You all also act like public female bathrooms are guarded with bouncers as well
If a male predator wanted to take advantage of this then quite frankly they would do so already. Stop using trans women to push this agenda and take a step back and think about what your real issue is here

Trans women ARE women.

what is a woman and what is a transwoman willithappen.

when youre talking about changing the law its important to agree on terms/definitions.

@PoleToPole I have to apologise, I didn't read your subsequent replies that show we are mostly on the same side I assumed you were a TRA. However I still have to challenge your views and ask how on Earth a penis magically becomes a vagina because a person says so.

Surely it wouldn't be THAT hard to find a solution like - just have single-cubicle toilets (like the accessible toilets) that anyone can go in one at a time. That's all we have here (living abroad). Really no problem. Safe and nobody needs to feel uncomfortable

@SmeleanorSmellstrop (great username BTW the problem is that trans rights activists don't want these kind of spaces, as has been shown by attempts to find a middle ground. They want to be included in women's spaces so they can feel validated.

I've honestly never seen more transphobia in my life than this thread.

Gosh you must have led a very sheltered life!

@Whatwouldscullydo

And why is saying no to males unkind?

Are we unfair to expect males to respect consent or lack.of?

Are we mean to deny them access to our naked bodies?

Because patriarchy, because TRA's are the biggest misogynists going and so many men take ANY opportunity to trample on women, and they get especially excited when they can do it in the name of being progressive

Genuinely don't understand the bathroom/toilet situation. We share spaces with different genders in other contexts. Why are women more vulnerable in a toilet? Seems a bizarre way to think. When I use a bathroom/toilet that's public, it's private, I lock the door, why would I care who is in the next cubicle? They aren't in my space. This seems like a non issue to me

@willithappen what is a woman? Can you provide a definition please?

WRT to toilets - once upon a time if a male came into the women's I could report them to the shopping centre/gym etc and they'd get chucked out. Now all they'd have to say is "I identify as a woman" and then I'm the criminal. That's the point. Tell me what is the difference between a trans woman and a man using the women's toilets? because as far as I can see why should we accept one is unacceptable and one is completely safe?

@Tubbytenbums

Genuinely don't understand the bathroom/toilet situation. We share spaces with different genders in other contexts. Why are women more vulnerable in a toilet? Seems a bizarre way to think. When I use a bathroom/toilet that's public, it's private, I lock the door, why would I care who is in the next cubicle? They aren't in my space. This seems like a non issue to me

A non-issue? Tell that to the victims of Katie Dolakowski.

@Tubbytenbums shall we start with why you think that we have sex segregated facilities? What do you think the reason is for that?

tubby

Are you aware of the common phenomenon of spy cameras ? It's huge. In Korea it's known as molka. Cameras hidden in toilets and hotel rooms and the footage uploaded onto porn sites.

Males are the biggest consumers of porn.

Mixed sex areas are less safe fir women.

If it makes no difference why do unicef campaign for single sex toilets in places like India? So girls can actually go to school without being assaulted.

Are you racist? Do you think that British and American men and males are somehow soooo much more trust worthy they can pee next to little girls ? Its just foreign men/malea that are a problem ?

I really do think that the toilet issue is something of a red herring - it's about SO much more than toilets but that's the always go-to "What's the problem you can lock the cubicle" and "transwomen have bee peeing next to you for years" by those against women's rights to single sex spaces.the highly likelihood is that of a trans woman used a toilet, we would be minimally impacted. But I feel like it's the gateway issue into changing rooms, sports, jobs, etc - all of which have a HUGE impact. The toilet issue is just easier to argue against. Notice how no one ever starts with why it's fine and dandy to have a male bodied person showering with little girls?

Trans women ARE women.

Capital letters don't change reality. This isn't Twitter, you need to make an actual argument here.

Genuinely don't understand the bathroom/toilet situation.

Yeah yeah, its clear you don't understand.

We share spaces with different genders in other contexts.

We're talking about sex here, biological sex - there are two. That hasn't changed over thousands of years and across the world.

Women have fought for single sex spaces where biology matters and where we may be more vulnerable. Women's sports, women's prisons, women's refuges, women's changing rooms, women's loos. Uni-sex changing spaces are demonstrably less safer than single sex. When JKR spoke out in support of single sex spaces, she was deluged with violent threats - kind of proving her point. Many women don't want to have to undress etc in front of men.
Clearly, a lot of women like you don't care - but some of us do.

When someone like @willithappen says TWAW they are deliberately arguing for women to have no more sex-based protections. If we don't know what a woman is, we have no way to fight women's issues - the sex-pay gap, poverty, violence etc, all studies rendered meaningless. Women's sports will be dismantled, and women's hard-won rights disappear. That's why #beingkind isn't going to work.

I think your problem is you are so close minded to this.

Yes, maybe I am. I have examined the issue in depth looking at both sides of the debate for years, and that is my conclusion. I don't believe male people can be women. Have you got any groundbreaking new evidence that might change my mind? I'm open to that.