To ask if there are any groups of reasonably minded women & trans women trying to meet each other 1/2 way and sort this whole sorry mess out?

[Smiledwiththerisingsun]

I have been mostly on the side of the TERFS (trying to explain reality to fuckwits) until recently.

But the issue of trans rights trampling all over women's rights has been discussed in the mainstream media now & I think people get it.

I'm just wondering how we can reach an amicable conclusion?

I have a couple of friends with trans or non binary kids. They are lovely. And I wouldn't mind sharing a bathroom with them.

They are not the same as a male rapist saying "I'm a woman put me in a female prison"

Surely we can treat the two situations differently?

There needs to be more kindness on both sides.

Anyone agree?

Apparently so NiceGerbil. I tried to ask more about this, as politely and respectfully as I could (not on here, on Twitter and Reddit), but I was bombarded with threats to "die in a greasefire terf", and "can`t wait to watch you choke as I rape you with my girldick" along with many, many other threats of violence. So I am none the wiser.

So you can't say that men are bigger and women are weak because especially when it comes to transgender people it doesn't seem that the majority is this way.

AngelicPP, this thread offers differing observations:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3725560-A-picture-speaks-a-thousand-words-Transwomen-in-women-s-sport

NiceGerbil, cross post sorry. I am fairly sure we hold the same views on this subject.
I am merely pointing out that if people want to meet in the middle, and be kind, then they need to be aware of all that entails, including using the "correct" terminology.

@willithappen

Well the fact that trans women are women and trans men are men sums up most of your problems there

Women can enter a women's bathroom. Some of these posts 'not my problem' - unbelievable

Can you explain exactly why it is my problem? Because I don't see it.

To clarify, men aren't women, so me not wanting men in my changing rooms has nothing to do with stopping women using facilities.

So why does men wanting something they can't have become my problem?

This is really non-negotiable. Single Sex spaces are single sex. There’s no middle ground.

“Transwomen do not have penis, they have differently shaped clits.”

The huge majority of transwomen (well over 90%) do not have any surgery to remove their penis. So that statement is misleading.

It is unacceptable to have men in women’s changing rooms. A while ago a local gym prevented a man identifying as a woman from entering the communal woman’s changing rooms. Last week that person was prosecuted for grooming an underage girl. It was reported in the paper that they are a woman. They did not go to prison.

It is about time that this nonsense stops. The people that are spouting this ideology are influencing people like the person above in a very unhealthy way. Women and young girls are put at risk which is just not acceptable.

Yeah ive mostly been on the side of the 'TERFs' but getting fucking sick of it lately, some of the stupid shit I've heard and raw bigotry and most of all feminists thinking far right politics are the answer to this issue.

user1471565182

What is far right about wanting to be safe?

What is far right is organisational capture of institutions and enabling groups of men to bully and intimidate another group (the women who are speaking out in defence of women’s spaces) until they achieve their goal.

I agree with you OP. More kindness and understanding on all sides. At the moment everyone (on both sides) seem to be in full on attack mode and it is really sad.

Im talkjing about femininsts suddeny going on about suddenly supporting far right political parties or politicians. As I seem to say on here daily. They arnt interested in 'women's safety''. These people just hate any minority going.

Surely it wouldn't be THAT hard to find a solution like - just have single-cubicle toilets (like the accessible toilets) that anyone can go in one at a time. That's all we have here (living abroad). Really no problem. Safe and nobody needs to feel uncomfortable.

Changing rooms - same. Single cubicles for anyone. We have those here too. Again, no issue.

Prisons - bit more complicated but surely if someone was trans and had been living in that way then they'd go to the relevent prison? But obvs people couldn't just pick and choose when they're already in prison. And of course no sex offenders/perpetrators of any kind of crime against women could enter a women's prison. Or something along these lines.

I don't know the solutions exactly but i'm just trying to show that here IS a middle ground if people would stop attacking each other and bother to find it.

*about feminists suddenly supporting

I agree with every word eek88 said a page or so ago. I think the majority of people are somewhere in the middle but hard for them to have a voice. I think the outgoing head of equality commission pointed out there is so much common ground here - that gender or perception of gender shouldn't impose limitations. Its baffling that there is no way to start from this point. Comments from both sides make me wince - both transactivists and the no compromise GC feminists. Nearly all of it seems to be either slogans (be kind; TWAW; adult human female; single sex spaces) or commonly saying what 'they', the other side think and why its wrong. There is very little positive discourse at all.

Not sure if its the issue that causes this or its just the polarised state of general debate.

I think it is a battle for the truth.

The truth is that a male body cannot become a female body or vice versa. XY cannot become XX.

Hold the line.

I don't know the solutions exactly but i'm just trying to show that here IS a middle ground if people would stop attacking each other and bother to find it

I dont think there is a middle ground. Either a space is mixed sex or it isn't.

Either you believe wonen have a right to a single sex space or you don't.

If you don't then I'd like to hear what has changed about the male sex class in the past few years that mens you can garuntee that a male won't threaten harass or rape or generally make someone uncomfortable.

And I'd like to hear why you think that even though women aren't consenting to having to undress along side males, why the feelings of the males being told no are more important?

What do women gain? I'd like to know the the benefits of sharing spaces with males when I'm getting undressed.

I'm really sick of the implication of that I'm being unkind, to be honest. I'm a grown woman. I'm more concerned with having integrity and ethics than in giving in to emotional blackmail.

Be kind means you help someone out once in a while. Carry some shopping to the car or tell a few gobby kids to shut up yelling at some poor old lady.

Lending someone a quid for the trolly.

I'm.not "kind " to burglars by leaving the door open for them.

I'm not "kind" to someone at the bus stop giving them my car keys.

Why should I "be kind" by placing myself in danger and giving up my privacy and dignity?

And why is saying no to males unkind?

Are we unfair to expect males to respect consent or lack.of?

Are we mean to deny them access to our naked bodies?

Exactly, @Whatwouldscullydo ! And I am kind, FFS. Nobody who knows me would say otherwise. But it's nobody's business to chide me into "being kind" in the manner of their choice. Being kind is natural, it's not supposed to be a sacrifice or involve switching off your brain.

This is one of the most important things that girls should be taught. For a long time I thought performative, sacrificial niceness was the thing to do.

Especially when girls and women are blamed for what happened to them.?

Why was she out alone?
Why was she walking home alone ?
Why did she go back with him?
Why did she get in that taxi/user?
Look at her underwear /clothes/make up shebwas asking fir it.

Now we want to put them in the position of having to get changed in front of them? Having no way of getting away.

I would really love to know what the benefits are if teaching girls that if a male enters their space, when they r using the toilets at the bus station or going to Costa with their friends after school,

What is the benefit if teaching them that if a male follows them in, that instead of getting a staff member to remove them, instead of listening listening their gut ajd getting the hell out , they are to remain quiet in case they upset that male. And its perfectly fine fir then them be there they might have a female gender identity.

I am all ears as to why this is a good thing

Because young girls just aren't kind enough to grown men. It's always been a problem

There is nothing far right about wanting to feel safe in a woman’s changing room - it is a basic need - to feel unsafe means that women will withdraw from public life but perhaps that is what this is really all about - Taliban in another disguise?

the middle ground is third spaces:

trans sports, trans shortlists, trans toilets.

try suggesting that to TRA's and see where that gets you.