AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

@Bambini12

I'm not sure how I would define woman because it's so subjective.

If I woke up tomorrow in a man's body I would still be a woman in my head. I'd feel all wrong like I was in the wrong body and wouldn't think of myself as a man. I imagine that's what it's like for trans people. To deny that they are women or say they are lying about being women is denying a lived experience.

I think being a woman extends beyond biology and to reduce it to biology is reductive to the experience of being a woman. I am not a woman because I have a female body, I am a woman because that is what lines up for me in my head. It is not my place to say that anyone else feeling the same thing is wrong about their experiences.

And to answer a previous persons question, yes I would be fine with letting all women into female only spaces.

@Bambini12 but there must be a definitive. If its completely subjective then why have the term 'woman' at all? Why use the a woman is 'anything and everything' argument when it's evidently offensive to say transwomen are not in fact, women. Something about them must make them so, what is it? For something to 'be' there has to be a tangible reason for it, a description, a common instance.

It's not regressive or reducing women down to their biology saying sex matters and makes us women. Its our biology that has defined us for our entire existence. It's what's been used against us, what has been used to oppress us and what we've fought for, it's our history, our culture. Everything a woman is, is completely connected to her biology. Its not something you can feel, its not a thought in one's head, not an act to be copied or be appropriated. A feeling is just a feeling - it has no bases, no roots. Its not a definition of a person and 'feelings' dont get to impose on reality without evidence of its existence.

So what evidence is there that being a woman is in the mind?

@Quaagars

it’s high time this issue is discussed freely, especially with the recent changes in the US

What, like giving more right to trans people, just like overturning Trump's ban on serving in the military?

Nope. Like taking girls’ scholarships away, like winning in girls’ only categories when you fail at winning in boys’, like not needing to tell parents of Girl Scouts that their daughter will be sharing a tent with a person who has a penis, like opening the doors of women only prisons to anyone who claims to be a woman. Yes, all that and more.

Well that's the other thing the as you say,

I mean buy a fridge or a carpet and people are immediately suspicious of extended warrantys akd insurance. Convinced they are just out to rip you off. And most the time they are right. They are.

But this, no one ever stops to think who benefits. Who's making the.money.

Or why people are getting banned left right and center, getting doxxed, threatened, being taken to court, losing jobs , no benefits at all to anyone, but they keep fighting anyway

What other circumstances would anyone not realise that those pushing are those benefiting.

YABU because this is just another excuse for trans-hatred and the reason I generally avoid FWR. I’m glad it was moved.

Not sure why it still showed in my feed even when I hide FWR, and in fact @HebeMumsnet @mnhq it still show as being in talk-AIBU when I look at the top of the thread.

Joody it’s contentious because men (however they identify) should not be in a rape crisis environment, which is an exclusion for the benefit of women using those services.
Women fought hard to set up these services for the benefit of women.
Transwomen who have been raped would need specific appropriate care relating to their own issues which a dedicated service set up for their needs could better supply separately.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Its just so limiting isn't it joody

Why can't you just be boys and girls /men and women and do what the hell you like.

All that time trying to work out what box you fit in and what you can do within that box , could just be spent playing/studying.

Truth is outside your friends and family no one cares. You are just another face in the crowd that no one gives a secind thought. Why spend spend much time worrying about what they assume you are and how to make sure they don't get it "wrong"

Not healthy to be so dependant on other people for validation.

@Whatwouldscullydo and @Thewithesarehere yes it is limiting and the opposite of what feminism fought for, for them and for their brothers. Thankfully at the moment, yes the pause button is on, thanks to Keira Bell and the Tavistock whistleblowers who are heros. And yes - we do really have to ask ourselves why there are so many adults, so very over invested in affirming a transidentity in children.

Please report trans hatred.
Not seen any of that here.
Womens rights and safegaurding are not trans hatred.
The thread rightly got moved back to aibu.

But bambini12. It’s the biology of being a woman or girl in this world

How would the 200 million girls alive today been subjected to FGM be identified otherwise

How would the estimated 23 millions girls missing according to data since the 1970s due to sex selective abortion

www.newscientist.com/article/2199874-sex-selective-abortions-may-have-stopped-the-birth-of-23-million-girls/

How would the women in Saudi Arabia be identified and thrown in prison for wanting to drive a car

How are these women identified. ?

Can they identify out of their biology ?

The millions of them

If I woke up tomorrow in a man's body I would still be a woman in my head. I'd feel all wrong like I was in the wrong body and wouldn't think of myself as a man. I imagine that's what it's like for trans people. To deny that they are women or say they are lying about being women is denying a lived experience.

How is that any different to someone who believes that they are the second coming of Jesus Christ? Why do some end up in psychiatric hospitals, and others end up as adored leaders of 100s out even 1000s of people? How can any Christian deny their lived experience as the Christ? Should a non-Christian be silenced and persecuted for not affirming them and thus denying their lived experience? And if they are indeed the second coming of Christ, how come there are so many people who are also the second coming of Christ? How can all their beliefs that each one of them is the only true Christ be right?

Beliefs must not be imposed upon others. Beliefs must not over-rule tangible, provable reality.

@BrumBoo

There's no point asking *@Quaagars* what transphobic comments they see on these kind of threads. They do the same on every thread of this type. Pretend they haven't got a 'side' whilst making very clear that they think anyone who says that sex based rights either trump or are different to gender rights are transphobic.

You're not wrong

To reduce (being a woman) to feelings is reductive to the experience of being a woman

I don't think anyone is doing that?
Just that you can be a biological woman but still "know" that you're a woman, it's not always just down to what's between your legs.

@LastStarFighter

Another one who likes confusing women's rights for transphobia. It was moved back to AIBU, as it should never have been moved. Perhaps if you actually bothered reading the thread, you'd have noticed that. Maybe read the thread to learn something, instead of assuming bigotry at any mention of women's rights.

@LastStarFighter

YABU because this is just another excuse for trans-hatred and the reason I generally avoid FWR. I’m glad it was moved.

Not sure why it still showed in my feed even when I hide FWR, and in fact @HebeMumsnet @mnhq it still show as being in talk-AIBU when I look at the top of the thread.

The last time it was checked, AIBU vote for OP stood at 88% YANBU. When I gave my vote, it was 80% YANBU with hundreds of votes in. You don’t own AIBU.

@LastStarFighter

YABU because this is just another excuse for trans-hatred and the reason I generally avoid FWR. I’m glad it was moved.

Not sure why it still showed in my feed even when I hide FWR, and in fact @HebeMumsnet @mnhq it still show as being in talk-AIBU when I look at the top of the thread.

Because they rightly moved it back to AIBU

And where is the trans-hatred? Please report the post, where you see it (but given that you've not RTFT...)

@Bambini12 that's interesting. The only times I have felt like a woman have been when directly involved in experiencing a female body, periods, pmt, menopause. And all the stuff that goes with bearing and raising kids. And also the times when I have been attacked. Also the many times I've tried not to attract attention via my female body. Other than that - I feel like just a person. But I have formed alliances with others who have experienced the same bodily journey, because we have each others' backs.

YABU because this is just another excuse for trans-hatred and the reason I generally avoid FWR. I’m glad it was moved.

Yes, because speaking in defence of women and girls is 'hatred'...

it's not always just down to what's between your legs.

It's more than genitals, its our entire biology down to our bones and beyond. What else would it be, @Quaagars? Where is the line in ID politics if you can 'feel' like a woman? Can you also feel 'black', 'disabled', 'gay' when you're not as well?

YABU because this is just another excuse for trans-hatred and the reason I generally avoid FWR. I’m glad it was moved.

'this' being asking the question about whether young girls should be able to get changed in women's changing rooms without sharing them with adult males who are undressed? So it's transphobic to ask that question?

That's weird . Why is that question transphobic?

Just that you can be a biological woman but still "know" that you're a woman, it's not always just down to what's between your legs.

How can a male 'know' they are a woman? What are they basing that knowledge on?

@Quaagars

To reduce (being a woman) to feelings is reductive to the experience of being a woman

I don't think anyone is doing that?
Just that you can be a biological woman but still "know" that you're a woman, it's not always just down to what's between your legs.

So what is it down to then, if it isn't XX chromosomes, I must have asked this at least 5 times?

If it isn't biology and it isn't feelings then what is it?

You're not wrong

Yeah, no
Have repeatedly said I get self ID concerns.

So what is it down to then, if it isn't XX chromosomes, I must have asked this at least 5 times?

You will be waiting a long time for the answer!

The men who talk down to me know I'm a woman, the men who road rage me, intimidate me in the street, threaten to touch me while im walking to work, they all know im a woman and im pretty sure they're not all mindreaders so what is it you think thats giving my womanlyness away??
They're not doing a genital inspection either.
But they still know.
Its so weird.

How would the 200 million girls alive today been subjected to FGM be identified otherwise

Trans activists are threatening the women who are fighting FGM, particularly those who are victims themselves, to define this act as 'Forced' and not 'Female'. This is a consequence of allowing the language around women's health to be eroded and it further dehumanises these victims.

And littlbrowndog you bring up other very valid points. It seems though that those who support the inclusion of males into the term women don't like to be reminded that the word woman still has so many repercussions for the actual people who use the word to describe themselves. And that taking that language away dilutes their plight and removes the language they need to fight their cause.

The empathy really seems to only go to males in this instance.