AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

Sorry, deviating from the OP, but related to the constant accusations of transphobia on MN.

There's no point asking @Quaagars what transphobic comments they see on these kind of threads. They do the same on every thread of this type. Pretend they haven't got a 'side' whilst making very clear that they think anyone who says that sex based rights either trump or are different to gender rights are transphobic.

To reply to the OP
This is a basic safety, privacy and dignity question that it’s essential to ask. Single sex spaces have been hard fought to get and are put there for a reason to keep biological men away from women and their kids when we’re undressing or otherwise vulnerable.
I would also add ‘children’ in to the question since that’s the reality. Doesn’t only affect women and teenagers if men are allowed into women’s spaces. Children too.

This thread is proof of why this debate is necessary. Well done @Fembot123 for listening to what was being said and recognising the truth.
People are too quick to shout ‘transphobia’ when women just try to protect their rights and spaces.

@BrumBoo

There's no point asking *@Quaagars* what transphobic comments they see on these kind of threads. They do the same on every thread of this type. Pretend they haven't got a 'side' whilst making very clear that they think anyone who says that sex based rights either trump or are different to gender rights are transphobic.

All the same I think if they're going to make such a serious accusation they should be able to back it up.

What transphobia have you seen on this thread @Quaagars?

@BrumBoo

There's no point asking *@Quaagars* what transphobic comments they see on these kind of threads. They do the same on every thread of this type. Pretend they haven't got a 'side' whilst making very clear that they think anyone who says that sex based rights either trump or are different to gender rights are transphobic.

If you say so (Although any other threads I've been on I've said I can see why people find self ID concerning)

If this thread has been moved back to AIBU, why can’t I see the vote?

Imagine you're a transwoman who passes as F
This isn’t possible - we cannot just overcome 500,000 or so years of evolution, all women know who is a man - our survival has depended upon it. Even babies and dogs know who is a man.

Do you institute a genital check at the door?
Are you suggesting that trans people wouldn’t respect the safe spaces of others?

You cannot change sex it is impossible.

I hope that MNHQ allow this to stay on AIBU as it’s high time this issue is discussed freely, especially with the recent changes in the US. This is being sneaked in under the radar without proper consultation.

I'm not sure how I would define woman because it's so subjective.

If I woke up tomorrow in a man's body I would still be a woman in my head. I'd feel all wrong like I was in the wrong body and wouldn't think of myself as a man. I imagine that's what it's like for trans people. To deny that they are women or say they are lying about being women is denying a lived experience.

I think being a woman extends beyond biology and to reduce it to biology is reductive to the experience of being a woman. I am not a woman because I have a female body, I am a woman because that is what lines up for me in my head. It is not my place to say that anyone else feeling the same thing is wrong about their experiences.

And to answer a previous persons question, yes I would be fine with letting all women into female only spaces.

@Whatwouldscullydo Very common where I live for teen girls to id out of being a teen girl and to be honest who wouldn't? Listening to them talk amongst themselves it is "so and so is trans, I'm probably enby". I heard someone the other day saying "I thought I was trans, but I decided I wanted to play hockey, so probably NB". It isn't different from the way we opted into and out of characters and personalities when I was a teen many many moons ago. The problem was the affirmation model, but hopefully that is being looked at more closely post the Keira Bell case.

THIS. Because it's never "asking a question", is it. It's all about banging on against transwomen and bandying around pseudoscience to justfy bigotry. See too many responses to this thread. You might all like to reflect how once all these types of argument (it's not natural, they are predators, they are just perverts who should be forced to stay 'normal')

I am really tired of the dishonesty. This is so typical. I have followed this thread and really haven't seen pseudo science, or bigotry and I certainly haven't seen arguments that TW aren't natural or are perverts or are predators. People are stating the FACT that men (whether they are trans or not)are massively more likely to be sexual predators than women and so should be kept out of womens' spaces to protect women. They have shown that the removal of single sex spaces leads to women adn girls being assaulted.

If you have to lie about what your 'opponents' are saying, then that really reveals that at some level, even subconscious, you must realise that you don't really have much of a case at all.

to reduce it to biology is reductive to the experience of being a woman

thank you for answering but for me :

To reduce (being a woman) to feelings is reductive to the experience of being a woman.

It's my biology that makes me a woman, the fact I've had periods, given birth, breast fed, faced sexism in work that makes me a woman. I have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, I just am one.

The world has no place for transphobia. A trans woman has the right to access female spaces. This isn't new! A trans man or trans woman's gender is protected under the Equality Act. It doesn't matter what surgeries they have or haven't had. It's nobody else's business.

They don't have any legal right to access female spaces. They are legally male and it's up to the service provider to decide whether their facilities will be mixed sex or single sex. I'm not sure what you think "protected" means.

I am not a woman because I have a female body, I am a woman because that is what lines up for me in my head.
The head that is connected to a female body that produces the hormones that are specific to to a female body, the hormones that then get to the brain via blood vessels that connect your head to the body underneath it?
🤔
Sounds like you will need a head transplant to think like a man because you simply can’t wake up a man one day.
(Disclaimer: no one has ever done a head transplant...successfully).

I was asked for my definition and I answered you question based on my definition. Transvestites don’t identify as women

Philip Bunce does. I mean you are right, he is what we used to call a transvestite. However now he must be regarded as literally a woman and has won a 'women in business' award. Despite getting to the top totally as a man, and only 'coming out' as a women (some days of the week, not others) as a woman. That's an actual woman who never got an award for succeeding as a woman in business, because Philip took the award.

That is the world we live in now.

Someone made a point and they're absolutely right that women only spaces are there to protect us from male violence, but trans women are women, and trans women are not the correct recipient of this anger, predatory men are.

In what sense are they women?

Its just so limiting isn't it joody

Why can't you just be boys and girls /men and women and do what the hell you like.

All that time trying to work out what box you fit in and what you can do within that box , could just be spent playing/studying.

Truth is outside your friends and family no one cares. You are just another face in the crowd that no one gives a secind thought. Why spend spend much time worrying about what they assume you are and how to make sure they don't get it "wrong"

Not healthy to be so dependant on other people for validation.

Agree. I stand with Helen and Sarah.

"I'm not sure how I would define woman because it's so subjective."
This is sexist bullshit.
Everyone knows what a woman is, we all came out of one.
I dont feel like a woman in my head.
I know I am one because ive beem sexualised and harrassed by men since I was 14.
Had period pains that kept me in bed a day a month, ovarian cysts, a pregnancy, an emergency c section and ive been a single mother since my son was 6 months old.
Funnily enough my ex knew I was the woman so it would be me that did 99% of the work of raising our child and paying 99% of the costs at the detriment to my career.
The man who scared me with disgusting words and had sex with me when I couldnt get away knew Im a woman that couldn't fight back. I knew it then too. I had to be nice to save myself.
The men who talk down to me know I'm a woman, the men who road rage me, intimidate me in the street, threaten to touch me while im walking to work, they all know im a woman and im pretty sure they're not all mindreaders so what is it you think thats giving my womanlyness away??

I am not a woman because I have a female body, I am a woman because that is what lines up for me in my head.

The ONLY thing we have in common as women is our female body. That is it. Everything else is just an individual's personality.

It is not my place to say that anyone else feeling the same thing is wrong about their experiences.

OK. Good to know. Those of us who are concerned that our daughter's still have opportunities in sports, employment, the ability to define their needs in healthcare, and to receive safeguarding will continue to fight for them.

I, for one, would like my daughter to not miss out on an opportunity in sports, or to feel she has to have a Pap smear or a vaginal ultrasound by a male who identifies as a female because she is worried about being called transphobic, and this one is very worrisome for me, to have to accept dick as a lesbian because she is young and is hugely pressured to accept males with penises as a sex partner. And I really don't believe those activists who declare that this is not happening. I see my daughter's friends applying the pressure already as teenagers. It is happening and it is abusive behaviour that is being allowed to happen.

Oh, and not have the experience of losing a promotion or a job because a corporation hires a male identifying as a female into a role set aside for a woman.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Its just so limiting isn't it joody

Why can't you just be boys and girls /men and women and do what the hell you like.

All that time trying to work out what box you fit in and what you can do within that box , could just be spent playing/studying.

Truth is outside your friends and family no one cares. You are just another face in the crowd that no one gives a secind thought. Why spend spend much time worrying about what they assume you are and how to make sure they don't get it "wrong"

Not healthy to be so dependant on other people for validation.

It’s not that though, is it? There is huge corporate agenda behind this situation, from healthcare industry of USA to the cosmetics industry around the world, there are huge interests. And don’t get me started on the women-only scholarships, training programmes and business funding. Didn’t win that competition as a man? Go on and identify as a woman and success is yours!

I'm not sure how I would define woman because it's so subjective.

No its not, its really not. And further, humans over millenia have never had any trouble figuring out who the women are when deciding who to oppress.

If I woke up tomorrow in a man's body I would still be a woman in my head. I'd feel all wrong like I was in the wrong body and wouldn't think of myself as a man.

Well, apart from the fact that this is entirely moot because it would never happen, I do agree that I would be pretty alarmed if I woke up tomorrow with a blokes body. But that would be entirely to do with the fact that I had spent almost 40 years with a female body, with breasts, a vagina, periods etc. So yes, I would feel pretty strange if suddenly I had a cock and balls!

I think being a woman extends beyond biology and to reduce it to biology is reductive to the experience of being a woman. I am not a woman because I have a female body, I am a woman because that is what lines up for me in my head.

And what about women who don't feel that way? Are they not women then?

What is the objective thing it that every woman and every transwoman has in common that no man shares? There isn't anything. There is no 'lady brain', no 'womanly essence' that we all share. Your female body makes you a woman, everything else is called 'personality' and there is a wide range of personality throughout womankind.

The only thing that every woman shares is the experiences of having a biololgically female body, whether it works 'properly' or not. And that is not something that transwomen share. And they might feel sad about that, but frankly, that is not women's problem to solve.

The idea of a 'lady brain' is incredibly regressive. That sort of concept is what was used as reason not to give women the vote, or certain jobs, or any sorts of rights throughout history. So slow hand clap to you for continuing to perpetuate it.

it’s high time this issue is discussed freely, especially with the recent changes in the US

What, like giving more right to trans people, just like overturning Trump's ban on serving in the military?

@ChattyLion

To reply to the OP This is a basic safety, privacy and dignity question that it’s essential to ask. Single sex spaces have been hard fought to get and are put there for a reason to keep biological men away from women and their kids when we’re undressing or otherwise vulnerable. I would also add ‘children’ in to the question since that’s the reality. Doesn’t only affect women and teenagers if men are allowed into women’s spaces. Children too.

Rape crisis centres too, hard fought for in the 70s by women for women. I remember reading an article in The Sun in the seventies - I was very young. It was on the front page and it said that the sexy wiggle of a woman in her tight jeans was too much to resist for x who was convicted of rape. That was the atmosphere for women in the 70s. I have never forgotten reading that as a child. Rape crisis centres are for women who experience the specific violence that relates to their sex. I think perhaps transwomen should be able to be supported in them, if they have experienced rape. But I don't think counsellors in rape centres should ever be anything other than natal women. This should not be contentious, yet apparently it is.

To reduce (being a woman) to feelings is reductive to the experience of being a woman.

Exactly.

Again, the idea that 'all women think like this' or 'all woman feel like that' has been used as a tool of oppression for millenia.