To think remainers should have got behind mays deal

[Mysusie]

Just that really. Surely it would have been better to support a moderate brexit that she offered rather than supporting extreme positions such as that if the Lib Dem’s. Aibu to think it was an error not to sign up the the chequers deal?

Boris Johnson resigned over the Chequers deal. Perhaps you should ask him that question?

Here's something I posted last year, just to remind everyone of what Theresa May was like as PM. Some of us seem to have forgotten. Yes, I agree she is infinitely better than Johnson, but that's a reflection on how utterly awful Johnson is rather than on her limited capabilities.

Theresa May has made little or no effort to find out what The People wanted or what Parliament wanted. She has decided what Brexit is to mean and has tried to negotiate it by sending one lazy, ignorant representative after another to get it.

She then presents her ideas to the Cabinet, having been told that the EU won't agree it anyway. She bullies them into agreeing it and Johnson and Davis promptly resign (Every cloud etc.. ).

She has tried ever since to bully everyone into accepting her deal - her deal - to the point where she has broken laws and been found in contempt of Parliament. She won't consult, she won't listen, she won't do anything other than follow her version of what Brexit should be. Instead she has wasted everyone's time by trotting back and forth between Brussels and London with her WA firmly in her teeth like a dog disinterring a favourite bone.

I actually agree with the OP here. Although the current predicament is not the fault of the Remainers, it was, in hindsight, folly to think that Brexit itself could be reversed.

@McEwan

I actually agree with the OP here. Although the current predicament is not the fault of the Remainers, it was, in hindsight, folly to think that Brexit itself could be reversed.

There were many types of options for Brexit.

We could have gone for a better option if the tories had woken up and realised that actually Brexiteers weren’t all right ring. Plenty of left wingers supported Brexit and vice versa.

Instead it’s a mess of a Tory Brexit. To be honest, that’s no bad thing as it’ll forever taint their reputation.

@FunnyItWorkedLastTime

I blame David Cameron. He should have got on the phone to Brussels the day after the referendum. Single Market, EFTA/EEA, bosh. “What do you mean that’s not what you voted for? We’re definitely out of the EU.”

The thing is that 'no one is threatening our position is the single market' is a quote from Daniel Hanan - one of the brexiteer MEPS. Back in 2016 when they talked about brexit prior to the vote they were talking about a Norway style deal. farage himself said 'look at Norway'.

So yes - EEA/EFTA was what was on offer and if anyone thought they were voting for anything harder than that (as they have since claimed ever since TM lay down her red lines in 2016) was voting for something not on offer.

No i;m of the opinion that brexit had no plan and was run by blatant charlatans and liars so anyone who voted for it was voting for any possible outcome and permutation and therefore whatever came to pass, that is what they voted for - because they chose to vote for something with no definition and no plan. But absolutely if we had never put down red lines and had always talked about a Norway style deal that would not have been reneging on the promises of the campaign (other than the part where we would then hold all the cards and be able to make our own laws - because of course that is a lie in any trade partnership.)

Someone up thread has said remainers should have backed a soft deal and not gone for a second vote. I would remind them that TM brought out her red lines and put the kibosh on a soft deal in September 2016. Remainers had no say in the type of deal we would get, that was chosen by her and Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill very early on, but when it was clear that what we got would be damaging and remove our rights, we fought to undo it. As is appropriate in any situation when you are faced with something which is unnecessary and will cause hardship and remove your rights.

This repainting of history, so there was a time when remainers could have acted differently and so changed the course of brexit needs to fucking stop right now

"This repainting of history, so there was a time when remainers could have acted differently and so changed the course of brexit needs to fucking stop right now"

Couldn't agree more!
They completely ignored what remainers said and what they wanted (millions marched peacefully; millions signed petitions - all disregarded), so pretending that Remain had any hand in what was decided is ridiculous and dishonest,

This thread is hilarious - a bunch of people talking themselves into an indignant frenzy but completely in a bubble! All this talk of 'owning it' - I think (as someone who reluctantly voted for Brexit) most of us are very happy to own it - it's going well.

May's deal was a weak capitulation - the deal we have now is perfect. It breaks ties with rotten institutions plus gives us a tariff-free mutual access. All the things that we were told couldn't be done, and the things that May didn't even try to get.

May would have left us completely told what to do by the EU but with no say. What exactly was it about May's deal that you think was better??

May's deal was a weak capitulation - the deal we have now is perfect. It breaks ties with rotten institutions plus gives us a tariff-free mutual access.

Until our standards drop and tariffs go up.

Rotten institutions? Hilarious.

Rotten institutions? You mean Westminster?

@MrsDoylesTea

This thread is hilarious - a bunch of people talking themselves into an indignant frenzy but completely in a bubble! All this talk of 'owning it' - I think (as someone who reluctantly voted for Brexit) most of us are very happy to own it - it's going well.

May's deal was a weak capitulation - the deal we have now is perfect. It breaks ties with rotten institutions plus gives us a tariff-free mutual access. All the things that we were told couldn't be done, and the things that May didn't even try to get.

May would have left us completely told what to do by the EU but with no say. What exactly was it about May's deal that you think was better??

Gosh I don't think anyone could say it s "going well". Even the Government themselves are admitting to "teething problems" which everyone knows is code for catastrophe. Trade has almost halted, The ports are wedged and this is only the beginning. I hope that it gets better but I very much fear that its worse it will get as many large companies relocate to a EU headquarters.

Gosh I don't think anyone could say it s "going well"

I can imagine someone who thinks they are unaffected will spout something like that.

However the real fun will start when the UK tries to use that "sovereignty" to lower standards and then get all huffy when tariffs to the EU go up. Which is what Boris agreed to on out behalf.

But last month it was 0%. Why is it now 5% ? What do you mean I have to turn back ?

Of course we can keep standards the same with minimal tariffs. The choice is entirely ours - the price of sovereignty.

See - again with the hyperbole. It's not a catastrophe, trade hasn't almost halted. And I say that as someone whose family currently lives in Northern Ireland.

I think this overexaggeration is why fervent Remainers just end up talking to themselves like in this thread, and anyone hoping for a rational debate and discussion just leaves you to it.

@MrsDoylesTea

See - again with the hyperbole. It's not a catastrophe, trade hasn't almost halted. And I say that as someone whose family currently lives in Northern Ireland.

I think this overexaggeration is why fervent Remainers just end up talking to themselves like in this thread, and anyone hoping for a rational debate and discussion just leaves you to it.

There's no debate to be had anymore. You won. Now it's answers to questions. Admittedly questions that were being asked before we left the transition period, but that still stand.

So where are the answers ? For example what level of tariffs are you happy for Boris and Co. to accept on your behalf for what lowering of standards ?

This is your prize. You won it. How does it work ?

@MrsDoylesTea

See - again with the hyperbole. It's not a catastrophe, trade hasn't almost halted. And I say that as someone whose family currently lives in Northern Ireland.

I think this overexaggeration is why fervent Remainers just end up talking to themselves like in this thread, and anyone hoping for a rational debate and discussion just leaves you to it.

It's very nice that your family live in Northern Ireland but I'm not sure why that makes you some sort of expert how trade is going? Or does having family living in Northern Ireland somehow give you detailed knowledge of what is happening at every port in the UK? Using the special powers that having family living in Northern Ireland has given you, can you please explain why the fishing industry is so unhappy and even using the word 'catastrophe' to describe what is happening?

@MrsDoylesTea

See - again with the hyperbole. It's not a catastrophe, trade hasn't almost halted. And I say that as someone whose family currently lives in Northern Ireland.

I think this overexaggeration is why fervent Remainers just end up talking to themselves like in this thread, and anyone hoping for a rational debate and discussion just leaves you to it.

How are you personally going to fix fishing, farming, financial services, car industry, chemical industry, non-financial services, import/export red tape.

What is your plan?

The peoples vote fanatics wouldn't accept any Brexit and now we pay the price.

@Newrumpus

It was a strategic error because so many remainers were convinced that the outcome could be changed.

The error was campaigning against it. Labour could have abstained and the Tories would have torn themselves apart over it. Now they're united over Brexit and Labour were torn apart.

@Thelnebriati

YABU. The point of wanting to remain in the EU was that we didnt support Brexit at all. If Leavers wanted Remainers to vote for any form of Brexit you should have been able to explain what the outcome would be.

Labour pledged in the 2017 election to respect the referendum result and accept Brexit. The minute they betrayed the majority of their own constituencies they were toast.

The ERG and Boris didn’t vote for Mays deal. If they had it would have gone through.

May set her red lines down in 2016. And from that moment the course was set.

@AethelsWhiteGoose

The ERG and Boris didn’t vote for Mays deal. If they had it would have gone through.

May set her red lines down in 2016. And from that moment the course was set.

But because of the refusal to any compromise on the remain side it fed straight into Boris and ERG hands. Rather the Tories tear each other apart they could go to the country and blame Labout for trying to overturn a Democratic vote

There's a difference between rejecting a specific deal (ERG) and rejecting any deal that wasn't business as usual (remainers)

As a remainer I am pleased that as a cohesive mass we held out and did not roll over to the whims of people who had bought their "victory" by a parade of lies that are now being exposed. Sorry, if you bring a forged banknote into my shop, then don't be surprised if you can't spend it.

There was no obligation on anyone who did not vote Leave to get behind Brexit. It wasn't an act of religious conversion with a penalty for heresy - even though leavers tried to make it so at the time.

So in the name of this thread, once again, fuck off trying to blame the people who tried to stop this clusterfuck at every single possible turn. If those whining fishermen could pull their heads out of their arses for the briefest of moments, they would know that a million people marched twice to try and save their industry. And over six million people tried to get a change in course for them too. Even though at the time we were called all sorts of names.

It was rank bad strategy from Remain. Poor referendum campaign and then spent 3 and a half years trying to overturn the result, which was never going to go down well.

I didn't want Brexit but the total lack of nous and pragmatism playes right into Boris's hands and now we have the worst of both worlds. Especially as the disastrous handling of Covid is partly due to being preoccupied with negotiating Brexit deal and preoccupied with that.

But because of the refusal to any compromise on the remain side

Oh, bollocks, there was plenty of openness to compromise on the Remain side. It wasn't the leavers supporting or proposing the various "Brexit but without making it into a total clusterfuck" options mooted- Common Market 2.0, remain in SM, remain in CU, etc, was it?

Stop trying to make us take responsibility for your fuck ups, for goodness sake. We didn't want this, ask for it, vote for it, elect people who wanted to enact it. We argued against it. You cannot now tell us that it is our fault. You lot knew what you were voting for! You won, get over it.

@User133847

It was rank bad strategy from Remain. Poor referendum campaign and then spent 3 and a half years trying to overturn the result, which was never going to go down well.

I didn't want Brexit but the total lack of nous and pragmatism playes right into Boris's hands and now we have the worst of both worlds. Especially as the disastrous handling of Covid is partly due to being preoccupied with negotiating Brexit deal and preoccupied with that.

I restate. You can't buy goods with a forged note.

If remainers had laid back and accepted the result of a campaign that was based from start to finish on lies from leave plus the egregious rush to implement an advisory referendum based on 4 words, it would have been an abdication of responsibility and a bad precedent for the history books.

One of the few positive outcomes as a result of that stance is that now - post Brexit - Leavers can be repeatedly made to face their mess and they can fuck off saying we all voted for it.

Where I live, the emotions surrounding the 1974 boundary review still run high - as regular phone ins reveal. The grudges around Brexit will make that seem like a playground spat by comparison. The word will be popping up in political discourse in England for decades. Well after we are all dust.

A few times in my life I have stood up and said Not in my name and I have never regretted them and I am not going to start now.